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WWII “what if?” Scenario- Operation Barbarossa
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:24 pm
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:24 pm
Germany launched its invasion of the Soviet Union, Operation Barbarossa” on June 22, 1941. We all know how that turned out. But, what if Hitler had been more patient? What if instead of invading in June 1941, he pushed the invasion back to the Spring of 1942? And furthermore, Hitler used this year to build up the Wehrmacht’s logistics capabilities, built and trained more mechanized forces, built up the Luftwaffe to make good the losses thus far in the war that had only partially been made good by June 1941. And most importantly, Hitler didn’t make the insanely stupid move of declaring war on the US in December 1941, instead seeing the Japanese attack on the American Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor as the prefect insurance policy on keeping the US tied up fighting a war on the other side of the planet instead of sending men and materials to Europe against Germany.
How would these two moves (1) invading the Soviet Union in the Spring of ‘42 instead of the Summer of 41, and (2) Germany not declaring war on the US altered the war?
Discuss
How would these two moves (1) invading the Soviet Union in the Spring of ‘42 instead of the Summer of 41, and (2) Germany not declaring war on the US altered the war?
Discuss
17
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:30 pm to Darth_Vader
Wir würden alle Deutsch sprechen
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:30 pm to Darth_Vader
Would have been curious to see what the ussr, not at war with the axis in dec 1941, does in the east.
Do they see that as an opportunity to test Japan again in Manchuria? In late 30s there were numerous border clashes between Japan and the ussr in Mongolia and Siberia. Would Russia have moved more forces east by spring if 42 leaving a later operation Barbarossa less Soviet troops to fight in the west.
Do they see that as an opportunity to test Japan again in Manchuria? In late 30s there were numerous border clashes between Japan and the ussr in Mongolia and Siberia. Would Russia have moved more forces east by spring if 42 leaving a later operation Barbarossa less Soviet troops to fight in the west.
This post was edited on 2/26/25 at 7:32 pm
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:34 pm to Darth_Vader
They shouldn’t have invaded East until the Western front was well and truly won. Hitler was smelling his own farts on that one.
As for not declaring on the US, it wouldn't have mattered. Japan forced us into war, but FDR wanted war against Hitler so bad he could taste it. Once Japan attacked , it was inevitable that we would have warred against Germany regardless. Toho gave FDR his door. No way he wasn’t going to walk through it.
As for not declaring on the US, it wouldn't have mattered. Japan forced us into war, but FDR wanted war against Hitler so bad he could taste it. Once Japan attacked , it was inevitable that we would have warred against Germany regardless. Toho gave FDR his door. No way he wasn’t going to walk through it.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:38 pm to tigeraddict
quote:
Would have been curious to see what the ussr, not at war with the axis in dec 1941, does in the east.
Do they see that as an opportunity to test Japan again in Manchuria? In late 39s there were numerous border clashes between Japan and the ussr in Mongolia and Siberia. Would Russia have moved more forces east by spring if 42 leaving a later operation Barbarossa less Soviet troops to fight in the west.
As I wax inferring this thread, one of the main things I wondered about was what would the Soviets do in that year. It’s known that as early as the Spring of 1941 they were getting warnings from multiple sources the Germans were building up in the east to invade the USSR. Stalin chose to ignore those warnings. Would this extra almost year give him time to (1) change his mind on the matter and (2) build up defenses on his western frontier?
Another thing to consider is would the Germans learn about the existence of the T-34 in this scenario? In our timeline, by mid-1942, the Germans were already fielding the Tiger I. Would, after learning of the existence of the T-34, the Germans have ramped up Tiger I production?
There a lot of “what-ifs” to consider.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:40 pm to Darth_Vader
I love WW2 history. Hitler needed to take England.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:42 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
I wondered about was what would the Soviets do in that year.
Agree. They could've geared up and been ready or attacked first.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:43 pm to Darth_Vader
While many think Germany was fully mechanized due to all the hype Blitzkrieg gets, they had 600K horses that went in with Barbarossa.
Building more trucks would have helped, as would more tanks as the Soviets had far more than Germany. The Tiger I was not introduced until mid '42, so the Soviets would still have superior tanks but with mediocre training and leadership.
I've long thought Germany's largest failure was the Abwehr/Fremde Heere Ost. Military intelligence was extremely weak, to the point Hitler had no idea the Soviets had 6 times as many tanks, the T34 existed or that the Red Army was twice as big as they estimated.
Building more trucks would have helped, as would more tanks as the Soviets had far more than Germany. The Tiger I was not introduced until mid '42, so the Soviets would still have superior tanks but with mediocre training and leadership.
I've long thought Germany's largest failure was the Abwehr/Fremde Heere Ost. Military intelligence was extremely weak, to the point Hitler had no idea the Soviets had 6 times as many tanks, the T34 existed or that the Red Army was twice as big as they estimated.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:44 pm to Darth_Vader
i'd go the other direction, if they would have invaded earlier in the spring instead of having to divert forces to greece and elsewhere they would have been in moscow before winter hit
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:46 pm to DesScorp
quote:
As for not declaring on the US, it wouldn't have mattered. Japan forced us into war, but FDR wanted war against Hitler so bad he could taste it. Once Japan attacked , it was inevitable that we would have warred against Germany regardless. Toho gave FDR his door. No way he wasn’t going to walk through it.
Would the American public gone for it though? Remember, Hitler did FDR the favor of making that a moot point. But if Hitler had not done this, you’d have the American public screaming for Japanese blood to avenge Pearl Harbor. Plus, you have to remember the situation in the Pacific in 1941-1942. We had an entire army fighting for its life in the Philippines and American forces were being overrun in places like Wake Island. And until at least mid-1942, there was a real fear among a large portion of the population that a Japanese invasion of the mainland US was a serious possibility. How would the American people react to diverting resources from a war in which we were barely hanging on to go fight a war in Europe that really didn’t involve us?
Think of it this way, imagine tomorrow China attacks us in the Pacific and takes out most of our fleet. But the president decides to send American troops to Ukraine to help them fight the Russians. That’s what it would be like.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:48 pm to PSS101
quote:the Blitz didn't work.
Hitler needed to take England.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:49 pm to Darth_Vader
Even with less tiger I’s. The extra year would have given more numbers of the 50mm Pz-III and more of the 75mm
Long barrel version on the Pz-IV.
The 37mm Pz-III and 75mm short barrel Pz-IV were near useless vs the T-34.
The Tiger I’s 88mm Pak version form the 88mm flak gun was best in theater in 42. Even if not is much higher numbers having more of the upgraded III’s and IV would have complemented the Tiger.
Long barrel version on the Pz-IV.
The 37mm Pz-III and 75mm short barrel Pz-IV were near useless vs the T-34.
The Tiger I’s 88mm Pak version form the 88mm flak gun was best in theater in 42. Even if not is much higher numbers having more of the upgraded III’s and IV would have complemented the Tiger.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:49 pm to Darth_Vader
I love reading up on Stalingrad, holy shite there will never be anything like that again.
Those damn Russian winters.
Those damn Russian winters.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:52 pm to TT9
Learned that in my World History class junior year of high school. One of Hitlers biggest mistakes was not taking England.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:54 pm to Darth_Vader
Russia is a hard beast to tame as far as invasion.. . Hitler like Napoleun left his supply lines to thin…I definitely wouldn’t want to be bogged down in the winter, should have done a spring invasion. They underestimated the amount of bodies Stalin would throw at them..
I read about Bonapartes withdrawal and it was a nightmare, starving, cold , troops getting picked off trying to get out
I read about Bonapartes withdrawal and it was a nightmare, starving, cold , troops getting picked off trying to get out
Posted on 2/26/25 at 7:57 pm to PSS101
quote:
Learned that in my World History class junior year of high school. One of Hitlers biggest mistakes was not taking England.
Taking England was never going to happen. Germany simply lacked the means to transport a sufficient force across the Channel, much less support it for any amount of time. Even with what little preparation they made for Operation Sea Lion, the resources at their disposal for such an undertaking were truly pathetic. Hell, they were planning to tow forces across the channel in freaking river barges. The Royal Navy would have slaughtered them.
Germany’s only hope against Britain was to knock out the RAF, which they almost did, and then bomb Britain into submission. And even that was a long shot
Posted on 2/26/25 at 8:01 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:They could’ve used those extra months focused on logistics to supply an army that’ll be many miles away deep in the Soviet Union.
1) invading the Soviet Union in the Spring of ‘42 instead of the Summer of 41, and
Dan Carlin said in Ghosts of the Ostfront that the Germans didn’t know the Russians had a different gauge rail line until the invasion was already underway. I think the Soviet Union’s was wider? Correct me if I’m wrong. Anyway, they could’ve been prepared to change out the lines as the invasion churned on.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 8:02 pm to Jiggy Moondust
quote:
Hitler like Napoleun left his supply lines to thin
A 1,000 mile supply line is always going to be thin.
Many people forget the Russians built their railroads to a different gauge than the rest of Europe. Solely to impede any invader. Almost no roads were paved, so turned they into mud with any rain and became impassable in the spring when the frost was coming out.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 8:04 pm to sledgehammer
quote:
Dan Carlin said in Ghosts of the Ostfront that the Germans didn’t know the Russians had a different gauge rail line until the invasion was already underway.
I find that very hard to believe and would ask Carlin for documentation.
Anyone in transportation would know that as Germany had been trading with the Soviets for years.
Posted on 2/26/25 at 8:04 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Germany’s only hope against Britain was to knock out the RAF, which they almost did, and then bomb Britain into submission. And even that was a long shot
The Battle of Britain ended the chance for implementing Operation Sea Lion. Had to have complete air superiority to even think of attempting a channel crossing.
Germany figured their U-Boats could starve the Brits into submission and they focused on North Africa and prepped for Barbarossa. And there were actually pretty close until the US came into the war.
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