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re: Wonder how many German SS soldiers refused to kill during Holocaust.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 8:44 am to idlewatcher
Posted on 9/2/25 at 8:44 am to idlewatcher
quote:
Don't let the Ukrainian people off the hook. They are some of the largest perpetrators of killing their own people.
“So Pavel, I have a proposal for you. You help me round up these peasants and I don’t put you and your entire family on the train to Siberia.”
“Is there a third option commissar?”
“Nyet.”
“When do I start?”
Were some of the locals enthusiastic about some of these pogroms at first? Maybe.
Is telling someone to comply or be liquidated really giving them a choice? No.
The evil on both sides in WW2 on the eastern front started at central HQ and radiated out, not the other way around.
In the west we think in terms of personal freedoms, constitutional rights and using the word "no" in regard to governmental overstep.
In the east and under Nazi control there were no personal freedoms or enshrined rights and "no" was answered with a bullet or a trip to a camp.
Read “Gulag Archipelago” before trying to understand the horror that was the Soviet state particularly in the early decades through a western perspective.
This post was edited on 9/2/25 at 10:28 am
1
Posted on 9/2/25 at 8:45 am to idlewatcher
quote:
Don't let the Ukrainian people off the hook. They are some of the largest perpetrators of killing their own people. Pretty much every major pogrom in UKR was exterminated BY Ukrainians. Same with Latvia.
the historian jan gross wrote a book called Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland that caused a shitstorm there because the poles were victimized by (and resisted) the nazis nearly as much as the jews. so it was scandalous to learn that some poles actively participated in the holocaust.
that was par for the course in the east, where SS, reserve police battalions, and local militias persecuted or murdered jews - sometimes even before the germans arrived. we see instances of this kind of local collaboration in the persecution and murder of jews in poland, lithuania, latvia, ukraine, belorussia, and romania. not to absolve the germans of responsibility, but to underscore that there's a lot more blame to go around...
Posted on 9/2/25 at 8:46 am to Earnest_P
quote:
What you need to understand is that Nazis weren’t actually humans, like you and me and Anne frank. They were subhuman monsters who killed people with as little thought as you and I blow our noses. So don’t think about questions like this, ever. Just watch Saving Private Ryan again.
Well you’re wrong, because at one point that little Nazi was an innocent three year old kid who was not goose stepping or Sieg Heiling. If you had been born at the wrong place at the wrong time, that could have been you as well.
I have an extreme natural affinity for liberty and freedom that seemed to be just drilled into me by God, but even I don’t know for sure what I would be in these circumstances. I hope I’d be this guy, but statistically speaking there’s almost no way I would be:
Posted on 9/2/25 at 8:50 am to SLCGumpFB25
quote:
I listened to a podcast recently that made a good case that no one was forced to do anything they didn't want to. Everything was voluntary.
Voluntary or what?
As I just outlined, you can’t think of the “choice” the conscripted enlisted men had in western terms. These were totalitarian regimes with zero regard for the individual and no concept of personal rights or freedoms.
If you retreated in many situations you were just shot outright.
If you pissed off your sergeant you could be sent to clear mine fields.
Did you have to volunteer for the SS or the killing squads? Yes.
Was it possible to be “voluntold” or simply ordered to shoot “partisans”? Absolutely.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 8:51 am to SLCGumpFB25
quote:
That's hysterical if true, do you have a source by chance?
Technically it was the Speaker of the House who said it but Trudeau and Zelensky both applauded him. Now Zelensky knew EXACTLY who that guy was, but he knows the Nazis back in Ukraine will kill him if he doesn’t applaud. On the contrary Zelensky’s wife was visibly appalled and refused to applaud him.
But that regardless had to go through several dozen people and the entire Canadian Parliament is fricking retarded.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 9:06 am to tide06
quote:
Voluntary or what?
As I just outlined, you can’t think of the “choice” the conscripted enlisted men had in western terms. These were totalitarian regimes with zero regard for the individual and no concept of personal rights or freedoms.
If you retreated in many situations you were just shot outright.
If you pissed off your sergeant you could be sent to clear mine fields.
Did you have to volunteer for the SS or the killing squads? Yes.
Was it possible to be “voluntold” or simply ordered to shoot “partisans”? Absolutely.
if you read browning's book, which has been mentioned in this thread he notes that there is no evidence that german soldiers or policemen were executed for refusing to participate in the mass murder of jews. major trapp of the RPB101 actually allowed any of his men "not up to the task" to excuse themselves.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 9:25 am to Bunsbert Montcroff
As for letting Ukrainians off the hook, 90% of the SS guards at Auschwitz were Ukrainian SS. Another 90% of whom were not arrested, let alone prosecuted, post war. They simply returned home. What you see in the streets today are their relatives. And there were, approximately, 3,600 such guards, so just do the reproductive math.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 9:39 am to tide06
quote:
Did you have to volunteer for the SS or the killing squads? Yes.
Was it possible to be “voluntold” or simply ordered to shoot “partisans”? Absolutely.
Yes, that's what I was meaning.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 9:41 am to Bunsbert Montcroff
quote:
if you read browning's book, which has been mentioned in this thread he notes that there is no evidence that german soldiers or policemen were executed for refusing to participate in the mass murder of jews. major trapp of the RPB101 actually allowed any of his men "not up to the task" to excuse themselves.
By and large they weren't lunatics. They needed bodies, period, as in all wars. If he won't shoot a Jew or a Russian he can still support those who will.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 9:41 am to tide06
quote:Being sent to the Russian front was a very real and serious threat.
The Wehrmacht wasn’t the Boy Scouts.
If you failed to follow orders they shot you or sent you into a minefield to clear mines which amounts to the same thing.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 10:25 am to tide06
We can argue motivations in a different thread, but my point still stands.
Many of these pogroms were set up immediately after WW1 so these people already had a pre-existing beef with the jews. Petliura Days is one and I'm not just cherry picking Ukraine b/c tons of other countries had their nationalists round up and execute them as well. Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, etc etc.
Ergo, "nationalists" to me does not equate to gun to the head force. I'm fairly certain that did happen however and we'll never be able to understand the true threat if they didn't comply.
Many of these pogroms were set up immediately after WW1 so these people already had a pre-existing beef with the jews. Petliura Days is one and I'm not just cherry picking Ukraine b/c tons of other countries had their nationalists round up and execute them as well. Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, etc etc.
Ergo, "nationalists" to me does not equate to gun to the head force. I'm fairly certain that did happen however and we'll never be able to understand the true threat if they didn't comply.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 12:31 pm to Earnest_P
quote:
What you need to understand is that Nazis weren’t actually humans, like you and me and Anne frank.
No, this is completely wrong and a big part of the problem.
They were just people. And they didn't get there overnight. It was decades.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 12:46 pm to BregmansWheelbarrow
quote:
I’ll just say…if a german soldier had a conscienc
I don’t think that. Many people on this site would’ve qualified based upon national pride alone.
What men do out in the freedom of war will never be known by us. I’m sure a lot of Nazis died or were jailed for non compliance
Hell some were lying about their support to become opposition leaders.
You have to be clever in this situations to stay upright.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 12:47 pm to SLCGumpFB25
quote:
No, this is completely wrong and a big part of the problem. They were just people. And they didn't get there overnight. It was decades.
100% agree. The person you responded to is a moron.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 12:58 pm to SLCGumpFB25
quote:
No, this is completely wrong
Wait, so the Germans were just people? So why didn’t Western media talk about how their women were raped by Communists after the war?
quote:
And they didn't get there overnight. It was decades.
Centuries.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 1:00 pm to Earnest_P
quote:
So why didn’t Western media talk about how their women were raped by Communists after the war?
Posted on 9/2/25 at 1:34 pm to jizzle6609
But the goddamn Jews though
Posted on 9/2/25 at 1:37 pm to Theduckhunter
I think it’s on Netflix
Posted on 9/2/25 at 1:51 pm to Mushroom1968
I love a good old fashioned Nazi conversation.
Posted on 9/2/25 at 2:02 pm to Earnest_P
quote:
So why didn’t Western media talk about how their women were raped by Communists after the war?
Because we were allied with the communists.
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