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re: Why do people think electric cars are somehow better for the environment?
Posted on 1/14/19 at 3:50 pm to ThreauxDown
Posted on 1/14/19 at 3:50 pm to ThreauxDown
quote:
Now people driving around f250’s to make groceries and drive to their desk job is a real problem.
Why? Plenty of soccer moms driving around in Suburbans. A lot of Americans prefer larger vehicles.
1
Posted on 1/14/19 at 3:54 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:It really wouldn't. Let's do the math.
So you don’t think adding about 200 million extra “dryers or ranges” that have to be plugged in for hours every day would be a big deal on the overall power grid?
The average person drives about 1,000 miles per month, so let's go with a two car household and call it 2,000 miles. A Tesla, for example, gets about 3 miles per kWh, so charging your vehicles would use about 650 kWh per month. This would add maybe $70 to your electric bill at typical rates. Less than most 2 car gasoline bills. However, most car charging would take place at night when the grid is less taxed and rates are cheaper.
So if EVERYONE switched to EVs overnight, the grid would very likely handle the demand by simply outputting the same at night as during the day.
Posted on 1/14/19 at 3:58 pm to The Blue Stuff
quote:
Well since I work in the oilfield with a shite load of other people from Louisiana, you want to put millions of people around the world out of work? That's the problem with liberals. No sense, just talk to talk to be different. There is one reason I'm back offhsore right now and that's Donald Trump. The US is no longer dependent on other countries for oil thanks to him.So the gulf is booming right now. Me and my family are happier now. I lost my job because of Obummer and got it back because of Trump. Period! Fact!
Sorry to break it to you, but the world does not revolve around you, your job, or your family. If you think anyone cares about your job (including any politician) you’re a moron
Posted on 1/14/19 at 3:58 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
I’m all for further innovation, part of my job where I work is to advise at team doing just that in the earth moving equipment industry. So I do know more about battery power vehicles than you give me credit for.
said the man posting 10-15 year old data.
This post was edited on 1/14/19 at 4:00 pm
Posted on 1/14/19 at 4:00 pm to The Blue Stuff
quote:
Well since I work in the oilfield with a shite load of other people from Louisiana, you want to put millions of people around the world out of work? That's the problem with liberals. No sense, just talk to talk to be different. There is one reason I'm back offhsore right now and that's Donald Trump. The US is no longer dependent on other countries for oil thanks to him.So the gulf is booming right now. Me and my family are happier now. I lost my job because of Obummer and got it back because of Trump. Period! Fact!
I get the knee jerk reaction to save one's industry, especially if one doesn't have the transferable skills or the where with all to gain new ones. However, this is only a political issue if you try to make it one. Do you really want the US to fall many steps behind in the production of EVs? The US car industry has been a prime mover for the US economy for nearly 100 years, we have ceded much of the production to other countries but if we don't move forward with haste in the EV world we will be economically hammered. There will be a need for O&G for a long time to come but the value of them will trend downward over the next few decades. If you want to give China the advantage in one of the near futures biggest industries just say it. At some point there has to be a concession from the horse and buggy destined industries that their profitability is not a long term given.
Posted on 1/14/19 at 4:01 pm to Dr RC
quote:It does make him thinking the 10+ year old data that much more amazing when he tells us he works pretty closely to that industry.
said the man posting 10-15 year old data
Part of his job is to advice people on the subject, and he thinks that batteries have to be completed replaced at 100k miles. That's astonishing.
Posted on 1/14/19 at 4:02 pm to The Blue Stuff
quote:
Well since I work in the oilfield with a shite load of other people from Louisiana, you want to put millions of people around the world out of work? That's the problem with liberals.
What the frick kind of stupidity is this? Technology evolves and sometimes makes things obsolete. Blaming that on "liberals" is retarded.
Posted on 1/14/19 at 4:05 pm to fallguy_1978
quote:
Why? Plenty of soccer moms driving around in Suburbans. A lot of Americans prefer larger vehicles.
Which is a problem, one that I will admit I contribute to. We are over consuming resources. It’s a culture issue for sure and most people aren’t willing to do anything about it (myself included).
The only way this would get corrected is high gas prices over an extended amount of time. But because people are stupid, instead of downgrading to a more practical vehicle they will cut cost in other places and cause a negative economic impact.
This post was edited on 1/14/19 at 4:10 pm
Posted on 1/14/19 at 4:09 pm to Obtuse1
Well said.
Great example of knowing your audience
Great example of knowing your audience
Posted on 1/14/19 at 4:13 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
I’m talking not just pickup trucks, but also big trucks like everything from dump trucks to long haul 18 wheelers.
Since you didn't bother I figured I would look up the salient numbers. We use about 3 times the amount of gas in the US per year compared to diesel. My numbers in a previous post showed that switching to all EV would increase the US electrical demand by about 30% and thats just a 30% increase on RESIDENTIAL demand. So adding all the diesel vehicles energy needs will only increase the demand 10% more for a total of 40% of RESIDENTIAL demand. I didn't find a number for commercial vs residential electrical demands but I think it is safe to say adding all the trucks and cars on the road to the grid today would increase electrical demands by less than 20%.
Posted on 1/14/19 at 4:13 pm to Darth_Vader
They may not be better for the environment but they would certainly increase the air quality in large cities
Posted on 1/14/19 at 5:38 pm to Clames
quote:
Even with 10x the energy density they are far belown the energy available in a tank of gasoline. Sorry to break it to those of you that slept through chemistry and physics but there isn't any type of battery technology on the horizon that equals the energy capacity, convenience, and safety of gasoline or diesel.
Fluoride-ion batteries would be more convenient and safer than gasoline and diesel. These batteries would have an energy density of about 20 MJ/L. While gasoline is 34 MJ/L, a combustion engine only has an efficiency around 20% at the wheels whereas electric motors convert ~60% at the wheels. 10x li-ion energy density would have lower energy storage than straight gas, but would be more efficient at moving a vehicle.
quote:
You'd have to charge longer so that benefit is less than you think. Seriously, do you not know how battery charging works? If you have a 50kWh battery and a 500kWh battery being charged by a 5kW charger, you aren't charging the latter battery in the same time you were charging the smaller, you are just spending 10x longer to charge it. A charger capable of bringing that time down significantly will need extensive electrical upgrades and you aren't using NEMA WD6's.
That would be true if it were just a bigger li ion battery, but fluoride ion batteries charge quicker than li-ion. Also the increased capacity essentially lets you charge over night and give you enough charge for the week while also allowing for better fast charge technology for charging stations. Much more convenient than gas/diesel.
Posted on 1/14/19 at 9:33 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:They will probably last twice that long, but let's use 200k miles just to see how ignorant you look. I will even use 250 miles per charge instead of the more typical 310 miles for the 75kwh Model 3.
Wait. So you’re telling me that you think it’s a good deal to buy a car that you know at 200,000 miles you’re going to have to either park it or fork out $10,000?!?
A full charge of the 75kWh battery will take about 85 kWh considering losses to heat. 200k miles at 250 miles per charge is 800 charges, so 800*85kWh = 68,000 kWh of electricity. Let's use the national average rate of about 12 cents per kWh, to arrive at "fuel costs" of driving a Model 3 200k miles is $8,160.
Now let's go with the higher side of fuel efficiency for an ICE car and give it 30mpg. I will ignore the fact that the Model 3 performs like a high performance car that gets half that, but for the sake of argument an efficient car will burn 200,000/30mpg = 6,600 gallons of gas to go 200k miles. If we assume gas stays cheap at $2, the fuel costs for an efficient ICE vehicle are $13,200. So there's $5k of your $10k battery back already. And the savings only get bigger as gas prices go up, or as fuel efficiency goes down (remember, the Model 3 will absolutely demolish any vehicle that gets 30mpg).
Now let's look at oil changes and other maintenance. Oil changes alone will cost you $1500 over 200k miles, assuming you go 5k miles between and they cost $40. And that's just the monetary cost. We all know that time is money, so those 40 oil changes cost you a minimum of 20 minutes each, which is 13 hours of your life after 200k miles. That's easily worth $500 to your average plant baw. Then ICE engines have dozens of moving parts which, even with regular oil changes, tend to fail eventually. I dare you to find a car with 200k miles that hasn't been to the shop a couple times for a $1-2k, 3-4 day stay. I'll be generous and only figure $1k of unplanned maintenance (specific to the engine or transmission) not under warranty for a car with 200k miles.
So we are already at $8k savings after driving 200k miles in an EV vs an ICE. Should I continue? I could, but I don't think I need to considering the figures I used. If we go with a more realistic 400k miles before a battery swap, the savings climb to $13k. If we go with a more realistic 25mpg for the ICE vehicle, the savings climb to $18k. And that's assuming the $10k battery pack won't drop in price at all in 5 or 10 years, which they will.
Posted on 1/14/19 at 9:47 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:Right, we tend to like true facts with sources, not made up alternative "facts" with no sources.quote:They don’t want to hear that.
The amount of raw materials needed to have a considerable % of the US driving electric cars is impossible.
And would do more damage to the earth mining them than oil has ever done
Posted on 1/14/19 at 10:06 pm to texag7
quote:First of all, this is not Tesla's fault. Second, you need to throw Apple, Panasonic, turbine manufacturers, etc under that bus, too. Third, Tesla has reduced the cobalt required for their batteries by 60% in a few years, and are committed to reducing it further or completely eliminating the need. Fourth, as global cobalt demand continues to increase, the DRC will see increased pressure to get their shite together, or we will choose to pay the premium for ethically-sourced cobalt. Fifth, assuming cobalt prices rise substantially, battery recycling becomes a more attractive and profitable industry.
This is where Tesla cobalt comes from by the way...
Posted on 1/14/19 at 10:21 pm to Darth_Vader
Posted on 1/14/19 at 10:53 pm to texag7
quote:He has. He has also built fricking rocket ships. What have you done with your life?
Why hasn’t musk developed new battery tech. The stuff he’s using is decade + old
I thought he was a super genius
You probably can't even begin to understand how difficult these problems are that he is helping to solve. You don't even want to try, preferring to just keep burning shite forever and ever amen.
This post was edited on 1/14/19 at 11:31 pm
Posted on 1/14/19 at 11:01 pm to texag7
quote:And yet, in less than two decades he has basically single-handedly changed, and continues to change, the direction and speed of development in multiple gigantic industries and even entire sectors of the economy.
If we’ve learned anything about Musk he is rarely if ever accurate.
Tesla hasn’t met one single production projection he has put out.
That's how successful people operate. They set unattainable goals, then try like hell to meet them anyway. If he only gets halfway there, he is still miles ahead of everyone else. He has forced every auto manufacturer to get off their asses and innovate. The same goes for aerospace and energy.
Posted on 1/14/19 at 11:09 pm to Darth_Vader
a coworker of mine owns a tesla, my god the acceleration
the technology in the car is fantastic too
the technology in the car is fantastic too
Posted on 1/14/19 at 11:12 pm to The Blue Stuff
quote:No, we want to give millions of people jobs innovating and building the future. Because if we don't, another country will. Your job is fricked mid- to long-term regardless. You and all your oilfield baws need to learn some new skills if you really love America and want it to remain great.
Well since I work in the oilfield with a shite load of other people from Louisiana, you want to put millions of people around the world out of work?
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