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re: What was Hitler’s worst blunder?
Posted on 3/10/19 at 1:35 pm to jcaz
Posted on 3/10/19 at 1:35 pm to jcaz
quote:
He could have stopped after France and done okay. Leave UK and Russia alone and the Nazis could still be ruling most of Europe today.
Hitler didn’t have much chance to leave Great Britian alone. Remember, France & Britian declared war on Germany.
Posted on 3/11/19 at 10:55 am to VolsOut4Harambe
Professionals study Logistics.
On 31 July 1941, the spearhead motorized units of the German Army Group Center (in Russia) were 432 miles away from the nearest supply railhead. Trucks and horse wagons had to transport the supplies from the railhead to the units.
The mistake here was that the German Railroad Service was not mobilized, equipped and prepared to provide adequate supplies to the front line in Soviet Russia.
In 1942, all German units headed towards Stalingrad were supplied by ONE SINGLE railroad track. That one single track was TOTALLY inadequate to supply the tanks, trucks, airplanes, etc. of an entire Army Group. Another track supported the drive to the southern oil fields -- also inadequate to the task.
Ask any combat veteran what a critical scarcity of ammunition does to combat effectiveness. Field Artillery cannot adequately support attacks. Vehicles don't have fuel to adequately maneuver. Direct fire heavy weapons have insufficient ammo to provide common tasks such as suppression by fire. All of these kinds of problems were present in 1942 even before 6th Army was surrounded.
In fact, the German units in Russia often experienced these kinds of supply problems in 1941 even before winter, because, as I said, the nearest supply railhead was 432 miles away from the spearhead units.
On 31 July 1941, the spearhead motorized units of the German Army Group Center (in Russia) were 432 miles away from the nearest supply railhead. Trucks and horse wagons had to transport the supplies from the railhead to the units.
The mistake here was that the German Railroad Service was not mobilized, equipped and prepared to provide adequate supplies to the front line in Soviet Russia.
In 1942, all German units headed towards Stalingrad were supplied by ONE SINGLE railroad track. That one single track was TOTALLY inadequate to supply the tanks, trucks, airplanes, etc. of an entire Army Group. Another track supported the drive to the southern oil fields -- also inadequate to the task.
Ask any combat veteran what a critical scarcity of ammunition does to combat effectiveness. Field Artillery cannot adequately support attacks. Vehicles don't have fuel to adequately maneuver. Direct fire heavy weapons have insufficient ammo to provide common tasks such as suppression by fire. All of these kinds of problems were present in 1942 even before 6th Army was surrounded.
In fact, the German units in Russia often experienced these kinds of supply problems in 1941 even before winter, because, as I said, the nearest supply railhead was 432 miles away from the spearhead units.
This post was edited on 3/11/19 at 11:08 am
Posted on 3/11/19 at 11:05 am to VolsOut4Harambe
(no message)
This post was edited on 5/26/23 at 4:22 pm
Posted on 3/11/19 at 11:15 am to Champagne
Hitler and his henchman devoted a ton of resources to transporting Jews, gypsies, political opponents and the like to concentration camps; they couldn't be bothered with transporting food, supplies and ammo to their armies.
Posted on 3/11/19 at 11:23 am to doubleb
What was really crazy is that after the Normandy invasion, when Western Front troops needed supplies and reinforcements, a ton of locomotives and rolling stock were still being used to transport Jews to various camps. It was nuts.
"Resettlement" was given priority over supplying combat troops in action.
"Resettlement" was given priority over supplying combat troops in action.
This post was edited on 3/11/19 at 11:28 am
Posted on 3/11/19 at 11:45 am to doubleb
quote:
Hitler and his henchman devoted a ton of resources to transporting Jews, gypsies, political opponents and the like to concentration camps; they couldn't be bothered with transporting food, supplies and ammo to their armies.
Yes indeed! Absolutely correct!
The Nazi German nation NEVER totally mobilized key war industries for war, which we know from Albert Speer himself.
There are other egregious examples of the use of key war-making resources for non-military purposes throughout the war. Heavy construction equipment and materials such as reinforced concrete is a good example of this: The Gauleiters were able to grab concrete and building equipment when they wanted non-military personal building projects done in their home districts.
Yes, the Nazi German nation was not fully mobilized for war, even on the date of the invasion of the Soviet Union, and, Speer's book and other history indicate that complete war mobilization in reality never happened.
Posted on 3/11/19 at 11:50 am to Champagne
That is true, but wrt to the holocaust itself the resources devoted were a drop in the bucket and didn't affect the war effort that much. I was watching a video lecture by a WWII academic and the statement surprised me, but that's what he said.
Posted on 3/11/19 at 12:42 pm to Jim Rockford
Common sense would tell you that it took a substantial amount of resources to round up, organize and carry out the capture and removal of millions of people from all over Europe to camps.
They planned and executed their extermination plans to the tee; yet their troops in Russia lacked Winter clothing, food, bullets, etc.
How could that happen? Crazy people do crazy things.
They planned and executed their extermination plans to the tee; yet their troops in Russia lacked Winter clothing, food, bullets, etc.
How could that happen? Crazy people do crazy things.
Posted on 3/11/19 at 1:09 pm to White Roach
In this context of being a superpower I was looking basically at industrial and military potential. While you are absolutely correct that the USA and Soviets were not superpowers in the early stages of the war (particularly the Soviets looking at how the Finns kicked their asses in the winter war) their industrial potential was great enough that they had the capacity to become a superpower should they have chosen to which they both did by the end of the war.
Also great point about trucks and military equipment in the USSR, the Soviet industrial complex was focused almost primarily on weapons of war and not so much the supply side of things. The USA provided them with the trucks and trains to be able to move their equipment and troops around. I cant recall which book I read this in but in the early stages of the USA providing the Soviets with equipment they had to temporarily stop sending them train cars as the trains were rated for US railways which had a different gauge size than the ones the Soviets used. So the US had to alter their traincar production so that they could actually be used by the Soviets.
Also great point about trucks and military equipment in the USSR, the Soviet industrial complex was focused almost primarily on weapons of war and not so much the supply side of things. The USA provided them with the trucks and trains to be able to move their equipment and troops around. I cant recall which book I read this in but in the early stages of the USA providing the Soviets with equipment they had to temporarily stop sending them train cars as the trains were rated for US railways which had a different gauge size than the ones the Soviets used. So the US had to alter their traincar production so that they could actually be used by the Soviets.
Posted on 3/11/19 at 2:10 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
That is true, but wrt to the holocaust itself the resources devoted were a drop in the bucket and didn't affect the war effort that much. I was watching a video lecture by a WWII academic and the statement surprised me, but that's what he said.
It's just one example to demonstrate that the Regime habitually devoted scarce resources to non-military projects and efforts. There are other examples. Speer talks about this in his book.
Nobody is trying to say that, but for resources devoted to the Final Solution, the Nazi Regime would have been able to supply the military front line in Russia.
The point is that Hitler's Regime did a bad job of mobilizing the nation into a total war effort. Before Stalingrad, it was not Hitler's priority to do so. After Stalingrad, it was probably too late.
In addition, as we know from Speer, there are numerous examples of the devotion of scarce military resources to non-military efforts even after Stalingrad.
This post was edited on 3/11/19 at 2:12 pm
Posted on 3/11/19 at 2:17 pm to VolsOut4Harambe
quote:
Besides going full retard and invading the Soviet Union.
Birth..
This post was edited on 3/11/19 at 2:19 pm
Posted on 3/11/19 at 8:16 pm to jcaz
quote:
He could have stopped after France and done okay. Leave UK and Russia alone and the Nazis could still be ruling most of Europe today.
Hitler made peace appeals to Great Britain prior to the invasion of France and immediately following the invasion. The British Empire initiated hostilities with Germany over the German/Polish war. At the time France had fallen Churchill was leading the British Empire and he was not going to make peace with Germany absent German acquiescence to a return to the pre-war conditions, and perhaps not even then. Thus leaving the British alone was impossible as the British were intent on waging war on Germany. Hitler would have liked nothing more than peace with the British Empire.
Posted on 3/11/19 at 8:27 pm to VolsOut4Harambe
quote:
What was Hitler’s worst blunder?
besides going full retard and invading the Soviet Union.
Diverting troops from the drive to Moscow to capture the city of Kiev. If Hitler had just encircled and bypassed Kiev then his forces would have arrived in Moscow roughly three weeks before they did. Zhukov barely had enough time to call in reinforcements from Siberia and set up the defense of Moscow as it was. If the Germans would have arrived there three weeks sooner they would have arrived before winter, arrived before Zhokov had his defenses ready, and most importantly arrived before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor which freed up the troops from SIberia that were experts fighting in the snow.
Posted on 3/11/19 at 8:48 pm to ChewyDante
Isn’t he on record basically saying he knew he was letting the allies escape Dunkirk thinking the brits were interested in a peace treaty?
Big mistake
Big mistake
Posted on 3/11/19 at 9:12 pm to michael corleone
quote:
Wasting resources in Africa. He could have pulled off the invasion of Russia had he not sent resources to Africa in an attempt to bail out the Italians.
The Balkans, too.
Posted on 3/11/19 at 9:16 pm to VolsOut4Harambe
Killing the Jews instead of enslaving them
Posted on 3/11/19 at 9:50 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
Isn’t he on record basically saying he knew he was letting the allies escape Dunkirk thinking the brits were interested in a peace treaty?
No. The idea that Hitler allowed the British to escape at Dunkirk as an olive branch is a myth.
He did, however, make two speeches of note regarding his desire for an end to hostilities between Germany and the Western powers. One in October of 1939 following the defeat of Poland and another in July of 1940 following the defeat of France.
Posted on 3/11/19 at 10:44 pm to GeorgiaTiger678
quote:
...train cars as the trains were rated for US railways which had a different gauge size than the ones the Soviets used.
That was another problem for Germany. They had to modify all of the tracks into the systems used by the western world. Amongst things mentioned by Military Historians looking a bit deeper than high school history, that was a HUGE factor in the Russian campaign. Throw that right in there with Dunkirk and not having better personnel along the northern French coast. I'd add in his field commanders not blowing up every single bridge as they retreated from the coast. That added time could have given Germany just long enough for a reliable jet aircraft fleet and strong enough rockets to hit any capital in Europe/USSR. They could have gotten a peace treaty that would have likely reset the map back with Germany taking Prussia back and the Soviets taking the rest of Poland.
The butterfly effect of a Dec 1944 truce on the current states of Japan/China/Vietnam/Korea are mindboggling.
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