Very different take on integrity

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Many have said that integrity is what you would do if no one was watching.

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If it weren't for walls, I'd fap in public.

Integrity is also the information security principle that pertains to protecting information from unauthorized or unwanted changes and alterations.

This is accomplished through hashes.

quote:

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Many have said that integrity is what you would do if no one was watching

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no one is watching

stopped there

I don't think your take is all that crazy, but we are all different, so there's bound to be some slight quibbles in how we're inclined to recognize and frame integrity.

An interesting start might be to consider the idea of honor among thieves, which points to a type of integrity... maybe some groups are pretty ruthless and do some pretty heinous things to outsiders and enemies, but they have an internal code of conduct. Amongst themselves, there might be a reasonably high level of honesty, looking out for one another, not snitching, etc. To the extent these people are consistent in upholding these internal values, their peers might think they have integrity... perhaps a good example here would be Tom Hanks' character in Road to Perdition.

Another interesting example, taking this idea to the extreme, is Robin Hood. On one level-- technically-- he's a liar, employs deception, robs people, etc. But he's inarguably the good guy and hero who has a high level of integrity. It's the sheriff-- the embodiment of government and law in the story-- that lacks integrity.

But moving for a moment to your point:

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You have integrity when something functions as a whole.

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I agree.

I listened to a podcast last week and that brought up something that I think will flesh out your idea a bit (credit to Jocko podcast #52, approx the 55 minute mark, where they discuss whether it's okay to violate core values to achieve a goal... sidetrack: I was so-so on most of the podcast and listened to most of it at 1.6x normal speed, but did like this one part). Paraphrasing: True success depends on goals and values being aligned. If you achieve goals while betraying your values or by espousing poor values (cheating/unethical behavior, etc...), any success you have is more limited and unstable over the long term.

This context of stability of success over time correlates nicely to your idea of structural integrity in engineering. If you want to construct a building (goal), and you use subpar materials and take shortcuts instead of doing eveything by the book (poor values), structural integrity of the building will suffer.

The podcast also went on a relevant tangent of a hierarchy of values: You might hold the value of never hitting a woman. But if a crazy woman with a knife is going to stab your kid, that value is going to take a back seat to the value of protecting your kid.

And it's this idea-- the hierarchy of values-- that allows the idea of Robin Hood to work. Robin Hood acts from a more noble set of goals and values-- despite his tactics-- than the corrupt symbol the law as embodied by the Sherriff of Nottingham. Robin Hood stands for a deeper sense of justice trumping common laws that can be easily manipulated to unethical ends. The Sherriff--in contrast-- is a facade of justice; it's only the false appearance of law (corruption hiding behind the letter of the law), and nicely demonstrates structural instability and lack of integrity... The Dukes of Hazzard also had fun riffing on the Robin Hood idea with Bo & Luke Duke vs. Boss Hogg.

In any case, the more your goals and values are aligned in a positive way, the more your actions should begin to align in accordance with that, and the more consistent you're likely to become. As you act with more integrity and become less fragmented in what you think and do, you will begin to "function as a whole" as you put it. It tends to play out for most of us that we have to play the game of compromises in some way or another (like Robin Hood) to keep your integrity while navigating the world with others... To go beyond compromise, though... off the top of my head... sounds like either being an inflexible a-hole or stepping onto the path of sainthood.

Excellent, EXCELLENT post!

Sadly it was wasted on a forum such as this.

What if I like it when someone else is watching?

Cognitive dissonance can result from incongruity of values. Our society is highly syncretistic and often pulls values from systems that are mutually exclusive in their fundamental presuppositions. Some call these events moral dilemmas. Often you have a crisis of belief when two incongruous paths merge or a singular understanding bifurcates. Yet if you can resolve these tensions you can adjust or normalize your psychological well being. Character is developed in the crucible of conflicting emotions. With each resolution you gain self awareness and more balance. This emotional intelligence leads to greater resilience. Integrity is basically nothing more than resiliency.

So you were a part of a conspiratorial group that did something really bad and now you’re arguing that everyone needs you because you associate “integrity” with working together as a group. And you’re arguing you don’t want to suffer the consequences of your actions. Just like gang members all do on a daily basis when they are charged with “racketeering”.

Does MS-13 have integrity? They function as a group.