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Message
re: Study - Electric Cars Produce More Pollution Than Fossil Fuel-Burning Cars
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:27 pm to Tigeralum2008
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:27 pm to Tigeralum2008
LINK
quote:
The study also found that the electricity grids for charging lithium-ion batteries contribute to global warming and other environmental and health impacts.
quote:
“These impacts are sensitive to local and regional grid mixes,” Amarakoon said. “If the batteries in use are drawing power from the grids in the Midwest or South, much of the electricity will be coming from coal-fired plants. If it’s in New England or California, the grids rely more on renewables and natural gas, which emit less greenhouse gases and other toxic pollutants."
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:29 pm to Shexter
What about overall carbon emissions from production process to end of life?
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:32 pm to Nado Jenkins83
quote:
Amarakoon said. “If the batteries in use are drawing power from the grids in the Midwest or South, much of the electricity will be coming from coal-fired plants.
Maybe for the Midwest but the gulf coast uses mostly natural gas.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:36 pm to Y.A. Tittle
quote:
Absent any incentives/subsidies, is it?
From a pure energy/cost perspective, yes. For $12 in electricity you can drive 300 miles.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:38 pm to Shexter
Are you guys reading an Onion article again?
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:39 pm to AwesomeSauce
And what happens when the batteries need replacement?
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:40 pm to LesMiles BFF
quote:
Are you guys reading an Onion article again?
Nah, it's the ground breaking research that heavier cars have more wear and tear on tires and brakes than lighter cars.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:42 pm to Shexter
Can someone link or post the actual study.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:43 pm to ruzil
quote:i doubt it.pretty sure the disposing of large amounts of lithium and other materials from batteries should be considered pollution and factored in as well.
Did they factor in disposing of the spent batteries?
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:44 pm to Shexter
Regarding the extended tailpipe theory for EVs:
Also, electricity production is diversified, becoming less reliant on coal and more reliant on cleaner sources. This means EVs will continue to become cleaner.
and regarding batteries:
quote:
Energy production is more efficient in a power plant than it is in a car engine. To use an example with an identical source fuel, burning natural gas in a power plant is about 60% efficient, meaning 40% of the energy of the fuel is lost in the energy production process. In a car, burning gas is less than 25% efficient, with the vast majority of the energy lost to heat. The larger more complex system at a power plant will always be far better at capturing waste heat than a tiny car engine. The increased efficiency means that even a car running purely on coal-generated electricity will emit carbon at the same rate as a gas car that gets 30 miles per gallon—which would be a significantly cleaner-than-average gas car. Because the breakdown of energy source is different in different states, an EV will be greener in some places than others.
quote:
Myth: EVs are a huge burden on the electric grid.
Actually: The grid is sized for the worst second of the worst day of the worst year—so there’s usually a lot of excess capacity. You could replace 70% of US gas car miles with EV miles with no changes to the grid. That percentage will also grow even higher as more homes get their power from solar panels.
Also, electricity production is diversified, becoming less reliant on coal and more reliant on cleaner sources. This means EVs will continue to become cleaner.
and regarding batteries:
quote:
Myth: The Tesla uses a lot of graphite in their battery, which contributes to China’s pollution problem.
Actually: The logic here is: “Tesla batteries use graphite; the world’s biggest source of graphite is in China; China has terrible pollution; therefore, Tesla is partially responsible for China’s pollution.” Except when I did some digging, I learned that Tesla uses synthetic graphite made mostly in Japan and Poland, and that the average Model S uses 100kg of it. That 100kg lasts for ten years, so the amount of graphite used to make a Model S is similar to the amount you’d use if you had a few barbecues a year.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:46 pm to bigrob385series
quote:
i doubt it.pretty sure the disposing of large amounts of lithium and other materials from batteries should be considered pollution and factored in as well.
It's all recycled, or should be. Even the spent lithium is still worth quite a bit.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:49 pm to Shexter
Comrade, you are wrong. Electric cars are much better than cars using "dirty fuels!"
Posted on 5/19/16 at 12:50 pm to Hammertime
quote:
And what happens when the batteries need replacement?
quote:
Myth: EV battery disposal is hazardous. Actually: A) Lithium-ion cells used in cars aren’t especially hazardous and are classified as landfill safe, B) They’re almost all recycled anyway, and C) They’ll continue to be recycled, because a used car battery still has a lot of value, either as a stationary battery or in the raw materials themselves.
and
quote:
Tesla also recently unveiled a new Supercharger feature—the battery swap. A Tesla driver will be able to pull up to a little rectangle and stop the car. The ground opens up and a machine comes out and takes the car’s battery off, brings up a fresh battery and puts it on, and you’re good to go—all in 90 seconds. This would cost $60-80, or as much as an expensive tank of gas
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:02 pm to Shexter
NO mention of the pollution involved in the creation and disposal of batteries? That alone is worse than internal combustion of fossil fuels.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:05 pm to Tigerbait46
quote:
A Tesla driver will be able to pull up to a little rectangle and stop the car. The ground opens up and a machine comes out and takes the car’s battery off, brings up a fresh battery and puts it on, and you’re good to go—all in 90 seconds. This would cost $60-80, or as much as an expensive tank of gas
bullshite. No way the battery is that cheap hell even a traditional deep cycle battery is over $100 if you change it yourself.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:07 pm to Tigerbait46
I don't know where they got that 60% from. They are getting about 60% in combined cycle plants, but that's a relatively new thing. Straight natural gas is around 43% efficiency, not 60%
And like I said early, there is still significant loss in the transmission of that power, which that person didn't even address.
LINK
So, this is information reported by the US EIA. You take 3412 (btu equivalent of 1 kWh) and divide by the listed number, so:
Coal: 3412/10428 = 32%
Petrol: 3412/10814 = 31.5%
Natural gas: 3412/7907 = 43%
Nuclear: 3412/10459 = 32%
And like I said early, there is still significant loss in the transmission of that power, which that person didn't even address.
LINK
So, this is information reported by the US EIA. You take 3412 (btu equivalent of 1 kWh) and divide by the listed number, so:
Coal: 3412/10428 = 32%
Petrol: 3412/10814 = 31.5%
Natural gas: 3412/7907 = 43%
Nuclear: 3412/10459 = 32%
This post was edited on 5/19/16 at 1:20 pm
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:17 pm to bayoudude
quote:
NO mention of the pollution involved in the creation and disposal of batteries? That alone is worse than internal combustion of fossil fuels
Ready my posts.
1. Much of the graphite is sourced from the synthetic variant made in Japan and Europe, not China mines.
2. One Tesla Model S uses 100kg, which lasts ten years.
3. Tesla is building a battery factory that will be self-sufficient, powered by solar, wind, and geothermal energy.
4. Most of the batteries are recycled and they are considered safe for landfill disposal, not hazardous.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:25 pm to pngtiger
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:36 pm to Tigerbait46
quote:
Most of the batteries are recycled and they are considered safe for landfill disposal, not hazardous.
Current acidic ones or alkali metal batteries? Neither are safe for landfill disposal at all.
Posted on 5/19/16 at 1:54 pm to Tigeralum2008
I would assume that electric cars, by their nature, are pretty heavy.
I know straight-acceleration is impressive, but I've always wondered how they handled.
I know straight-acceleration is impressive, but I've always wondered how they handled.
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