Started By
Message

Stellantis layoffs; now Nissan looks to address ‘extreme market volatility’

Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:14 pm
Posted by member12
Bob's Country Bunker
Member since May 2008
32090 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:14 pm
Looks like there is some more upheaval in the automotive sector. Stellantis and Nissan appear to be struggling and trying to restructure their north American operations to be more competitive. Nissan in particular has noted that there are extreme price pressure with EV's and they need to cut dev costs for these vehicles to be competitive.

Note that Nissan has canceled production of their venerable Nissan Titan pickup truck and Maxima sports sedan. They are also planning to phase out their popular Altima amid this product shift, likely to focus on similarly sized electric cars.

quote:

Nissan is targeting an additional 1 million vehicle sales over the next three years and a 30% reduction in electric vehicle production costs by 2030, the Japanese carmaker announced Monday.

In a new medium-term business plan, Nissan also said it would launch 30 new models by fiscal 2026, with 16 of these electrified. It’s aiming for EV and combustion engine costs to reach parity by 2030.


quote:

It comes as the hype around electric vehicles appears to have cooled a little recently, with major manufacturers including Ford Motor, General Motors, Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen all scaling back or delaying EV plans amid cooling demand. Even sector giant Tesla
is bracing for what CEO Elon Musk said in January “may be a notably lower” rate of growth.


quote:

To address this, Nissan plans to develop EVs in “families,” integrate powertrains and focus on battery innovations as it looks to cut the cost of its next-generation fleet by 30% when compared with the current model Ariya crossover.

“In order to do that, we have to have a great partnership with our suppliers to work on from the app stream earlier with the scale that we have to provide,” Uchida told CNBC’s “Squawk Box Europe.”


It sounds like they are going to try to do what General Motors already has underway with the Ultium chassis - making the same platform scalable for multiple models, including licensing it at least 2 Honda products, a couple of military vehicles, and at least one delivery van manufacturing company (Brightdrop). Hyundai/Kia is doing something similar, and they are building some impressive electric cars right now that nobody is buying. The idea of fully scalable architecture and the ability to provide all of this tech at a reasonable price solid, but if will not result in rapid success if there's a limited appetite for EV's outside of the bigger cities/suburbs. And high interest rates are also providing a lot of headwind since EV's are still mostly on the expensive side.

It costs General Motors about $20 billion to develop fully scalable chassis systems like that. While the products are solid, the strategy has yet to pay off because EV adoption isn't really as fast a they expected initially. GM is talking out the side of their mouth with this too, because they are also spending a lot to develop their next line of gasoline V8 engines too - so they clearly anticipate a fairly long timeline for EV adoption. By contrast, Nissan has canceled their full sized trucks and are starting to phase out popular gasoline powered sedans.

The problem with EV adoption is charging infrastructure, range anxiety, and acquisition costs. Billions of public money has been allocated to charging infrastructure since Biden's first year in office, but the progress in this area has primarily been in the private sector. Federal tax credits have been revamped to help make EV's more appealing to consumers. And modern EV's do have long ranges and are capable of rapid charging (most likely the charging infrastructure being the limiting factor).

It's challenging for automakers to make decisions around pulling the trigger on new tech that takes 5-7 years to develop when they aren't sure if the infrastructure will exist for the market to support the product. Auto execs have to balance between developing these expensive new platforms with $$$ that could also go into refining and improving their popular ICE models.

From a tech perspective, it looks like Tesla remains king, with General Motors and Hyundai moving very quickly from the second tier but are also splitting attention with ICE vehicles. VW, BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, and Ford are all selling EVS (some of them are even selling pretty well), but their EV strategy and tech are still not quite as well developed and are clearly lower priority than ICE, which is probably smart.

Oddly enough the highly reputable Japanese brands like Toyota, Mazda, Subaru, and Honda are pretty far behind with electrification. Toyota has an excellent hybrid lineup - arguably that's the best path forward as we balance limited battery resources against our desire to save petroleum resources. Honda and Mazda are completely flat footed right now in EVs - Honda has elected to partner with General Motors for now so they can offer competitive EV's (Prologue and Acura ZDX are actually General Motors Ultium vehicles) while Honda develops their own tech.

Stellantis seems pretty far behind in electrification in north America and are likely the most vulnerable as regulatory pressure hammers their ability to sell gas guzzling V8 muscle cars and trucks. I can't decide if Stellantis, Ford, or Nissan has the worst leadership right now.
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
98582 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:15 pm to
H
Y
B
R
I
D
S

you stupid fricks
Posted by billjamin
Houston
Member since Jun 2019
12423 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:18 pm to
quote:

H
Y
B
R
I
D
S

you stupid fricks

Hybrid's are benefiting from the BEV development. Everyone has the ICE tech, but most of the storage and EV driveline tech outside of Tesla is junk. They need to development that to have decent hybrids or we're just going to keep getting these POSs with 1.4kWh storage.
Posted by Jack Ruby
Member since Apr 2014
22727 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:18 pm to
quote:

canceled production of their venerable Nissan Titan pickup truck and Maxima sports sedan. They are also planning to phase out their popular Altima amid this product shift


Thats like 90% of every car Nissan has sold in the last 20 yrs...
Posted by 3deadtrolls
lafayette
Member since Jan 2014
5688 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:21 pm to
I can't think of one Nissan product made today that I'd want to own.

quote:

Stellantis seems pretty far behind in electrification in north America


It's hard to be behind on developing a product that the market has shown it doesn't want.
Posted by member12
Bob's Country Bunker
Member since May 2008
32090 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:24 pm to
quote:

H
Y
B
R
I
D
S

you stupid fricks


Oddly enough, I think plug in hybrids like the original Volt is the format that should be refined in the short/medium term. Thats the best way to reduce gas/diesel consumption nationwide without killing our electrical grid or running out battery materials to refine.

Notice that every new Toyota is either a hybrid or offers a hybrid engine as an option. I know daddy government doesn't like that and wants full electrification, but that's the right approach between now and 2040 or so.

Problem for Nissan right now is that they have some EV architecture that's sort of second rate, but very little hybrid technology. And they aren't as big as Toyota, VW, General Motors, or Ford....so they can't just dump cash in an "all of the above strategy". Companies like Subaru and Mazda might be in an even more precarious position right now.
Posted by jcaz
Laffy
Member since Aug 2014
15549 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:27 pm to
The winner in the next 15-20 years will be the one who puts out a <$30k mid size sedan with hybrid functionality.
Posted by member12
Bob's Country Bunker
Member since May 2008
32090 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:35 pm to
quote:

I can't think of one Nissan product made today that I'd want to own.



I like the Nissan Z, but it's not long for this world. The target market for that car is similar to the target market for other sporty cars like the Camaro, Golf GTI, Subaru WRX, BMW 2 series, etc. All of them are far less popular than they used to be.

Basically it's aimed towards younger 25-35 year old men in white collar professions. We are all screwed lately - but that particular demographic's wages falling farthest behind in growth against inflation. So cars aimed towards them are not going to be very popular.

The Frontier pickup is solid, but not class leading. It's a good, reliable vehicle and it's fairly priced. It's bland AF and Nissan is probably leaving money on the table by not having SUVs and off roaders (Wrangler/Bronco) style vehicles based off that chassis.

The Titan pickup is struggling in a hyper competitive marketplace where the American makes completely dominate. Nissan took a gamble with a big diesel engine, but it didn't work out for them.

The Altima and Sentra are basically rental queens like the old Taurus and Fusion were before Ford pulled the plug on them. Just not enough private sales there to sustain Nissan's massive dealer network for much longer. Nissan has lost their reputation for building reliable vehicles because of the CVT fiasco, and these two models have been negatively impacted by that reputational hit the most.

The Rogue does seem to be popular. Everything in that light crossover segment is on fire right now. Couldn't tell you if the Rogue is a great vehicle or not, but it is clearly paying the bills over there.

The new Pathfinder is a good effort, but I don't think it's very popular yet.

The Ariya and Leaf are floundering despite Nissan being fairly early to the EV game. They are just 3rd or 4th tier in tech. Not sure what's going on there, but it looks like this is where Nissan wants to focus their efforts moving forward.

The entire Infiniti brand is struggling. Not sure if it will be around much longer unless they can consolidate those dealerships with Nissan showrooms.
This post was edited on 3/25/24 at 1:40 pm
Posted by TigerGman
Center of the Universe
Member since Sep 2006
11186 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:35 pm to
I just bought a Volvo XC90 plug-in Hybrid in December. It's sweet. I get 36 miles on an overnight charge. I do 95% city driving, and I haven't yet burned the whole original tank of gas from the dealership! Even then, that's due to 2 road trips I took out of town.

The computer tells me I'm getting over 85 mpg equivalent.

Posted by member12
Bob's Country Bunker
Member since May 2008
32090 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:36 pm to
quote:

The winner in the next 15-20 years will be the one who puts out a <$30k mid size sedan with hybrid functionality.



They have to do this while also investing in EVs for 2030 and beyond. That's tricky unless it's a massive company like General Motors, Ford, Toyota, VW, Hyundai, etc.

Toyota's new Camry and Prius are far better looking than they had to be. Those deserve to be popular. Toyota's done a great job there. All hybrids.
This post was edited on 3/25/24 at 1:39 pm
Posted by fallguy_1978
Best States #50
Member since Feb 2018
48436 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:38 pm to
We looked a hybrid when we bought my wife a new car last year, but she just doesn't drive enough to justify the extra cost. It would have never paid for itself in gas savings.
Posted by soccerfüt
Location: A Series of Tubes
Member since May 2013
65540 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:38 pm to
quote:

I can't think of one Nissan product made today that I'd want to own.
This

I know someone well who is frugal (and old) who is interested in the Nissan Frontier because it is cheap and neanderthal* (compared to all other comparable vehicles on the market).

I tried to explain that the build quality & materials are entry-level and will probably not age well but he'll cheap out and just deal with it.

The last refresh was in late 2021 as a '22 model.

*not all in a bad way, a longer bed than other small trucks and a 3.8l V-6 (310 hp) rather than twin turbos bolted on a 4 banger. But built in Canton, MS would make me go Taco.

Posted by andwesway
Zachary, LA
Member since Jun 2016
1498 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:39 pm to
The last thing we need are a bunch of EV Altimas on the road.
Posted by billjamin
Houston
Member since Jun 2019
12423 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:39 pm to
quote:

I just bought a Volvo XC90 plug-in Hybrid in December. It's sweet. I get 36 miles on an overnight charge. I do 95% city driving, and I haven't yet burned the whole original tank of gas from the dealership! Even then, that's due to 2 road trips I took out of town.

The computer tells me I'm getting over 85 mpg equivalent.

This is a great example of why I always say that we need better hybrids and it takes investment in the electric side to get there. That XC90 has either 11.6 or 18.8kWh. That gives it the ability to really be the best of both worlds. To put that in comparison to the new Land Cruiser Hybrid, which is what the GX will get as well or the Ford Exploder hybrid which have 1.4-1.8kWh. That's effectively the same as adding a second 12V battery. It's not enough to do anything with.
This post was edited on 3/25/24 at 1:43 pm
Posted by member12
Bob's Country Bunker
Member since May 2008
32090 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 1:42 pm to
quote:

I know someone well who is frugal (and old) who is interested in the Nissan Frontier because it is cheap and neanderthal* (compared to all other comparable vehicles on the market).

I tried to explain that the build quality & materials are entry-level and will probably not age well but he'll cheap out and just deal with it.


I respect that philosophy that sees cars like toasters.

All toasters toast. Don't spend more on them than you have to.

That's honestly the smartest way to look at this, but it's not an interesting or fun way to see things.
Posted by member12
Bob's Country Bunker
Member since May 2008
32090 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 2:20 pm to
quote:

That's effectively the same as adding a second 12V battery. It's not enough to do anything with.

That's fine for something the size of a Corolla or Prius. But for a big, heavy Land Cruiser, it's really only good for low speed moves and slightly bumping up city MPG in the EPA tests and reducing urban/city cycle emissions.

The new hybrid Tundra or Sequioa don't really get improved MPG over their competitors. It seems like it's more of a way to supplement power output off the line rather than save fuel. In that segment, I'd buy the diesel Silverado or Suburban if I wanted to save fuel.
Posted by TigerGman
Center of the Universe
Member since Sep 2006
11186 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 2:28 pm to
quote:

This is a great example of why I always say that we need better hybrids and it takes investment in the electric side to get there. That XC90 has either 11.6 or 18.8kWh. That gives it the ability to really be the best of both worlds. To put that in comparison to the new Land Cruiser Hybrid, which is what the GX will get as well or the Ford Exploder hybrid which have 1.4-1.8kWh. That's effectively the same as adding a second 12V battery. It's not enough to do anything with.


Yep, it 's 18.8. The hybrid part did not even really interest me; it just came loaded with everything I wanted. I've learned to love it. It has 485 combined HP and 523 ft pound of torque, so it gets it too.
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
51498 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 2:37 pm to
It's not just automotive, FedEx has already gone through one round of layoffs in the last week. Next month there are more expected (one office in GA is completely shutting down, that's 300 employees, word is that they will be cutting their pilot staffing by ~500, which would be about 10% of their pilots).
Posted by concrete_tiger
Member since May 2020
5965 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 2:40 pm to
venerable is not a term I've ever heard applied to the Titan...
Posted by carhartt
Member since Feb 2013
7678 posts
Posted on 3/25/24 at 2:49 pm to
The only thing that’s really going to make them competitive is dropping the prices on their vehicles. No one wants to pay north of $75K for a vehicle.
first pageprev pagePage 1 of 2Next pagelast page

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookTwitterInstagram