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re: Solve this OT

Posted on 7/23/18 at 11:58 am to
Posted by PearlJam
NotBeardEaves
Member since Aug 2014
13908 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 11:58 am to
quote:


The initial probability of drawing a certain ball is the same as the probability of drawing that certain ball at any future point
So you think it is 50/50 that you pick a silver ball with the second draw?
Posted by tokenBoiler
Lafayette, Indiana
Member since Aug 2012
5089 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:05 pm to
In re-reading the problem, it never actually specifies that the balls are chosen from the box without replacement; that is, given the wording you could also do the experiment by:
1. Choose a box
2. Remove one ball at random from the box and look at it.
2a. Put the ball back
3. Remove one ball at random from the same box and look at it.

With those rules, it turns out to be 5/6 picking gold again.
GIVEN YOU ALREADY PICKED A GOLD - it's 2/3 you're in the first box, 1/3 you're in the second. That means you would pick a second gold 2/3 * 1 + 1/3 * 1/2 = 5/6
and simulation shows:
0.833012737925
0.833501195015
0.833995202532
0.83356376496
0.83395551501
0.833647576793
0.832830676433
0.833842267662
0.833897803564
0.832886330521
Posted by 50_Tiger
Arlington TX
Member since Jan 2016
43534 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:10 pm to
It took me a minute to understand that your dots meant indent but you deserve 1000 upvotes for the script alone.


*I confirmed in my PyCharm *
Posted by TH03
Mogadishu
Member since Dec 2008
172004 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:11 pm to
I think it can be assumed the ball isn’t returned.

Your first post shows the definitive answer and proof.
Posted by tokenBoiler
Lafayette, Indiana
Member since Aug 2012
5089 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:17 pm to
Python makes it ridiculously easy to whip out a Monte Carlo simulation, but copying to a text box to post mangles the hell out of consecutive whitespaces, unfortunately.
Posted by Havoc
Member since Nov 2015
39564 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:24 pm to
quote:

Once you pull the gold ball, you've eliminated the all silver (AS) box from your options. So in your hand you either have the all gold box (AG), or the mixed box (M). Leaving you only 2 options: 1) The chance of drawing a gold from the M is 0% 2) The chance of drawing the gold ball from the AG is 100% The only way you change those odds are if you place your drawn gold ball back into your box. And then draw again from that same box. But I did not interpret the problem that way. I read it that I now have 1 gold ball in my hand, and there is only 1 ball remaining for me to choose from, in THE SAME BOX. Its 50/50 at that point. I either have the AG box or the M box in my hand. There are simply no other options


Same here. Or if it was one box with three balls remaining (G, G, S). But it’s not, it’s one box with one ball remaining.
Posted by Havoc
Member since Nov 2015
39564 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:26 pm to
quote:

You DON'T know from which of the two boxes.

Can we agree that’s the rub?

It says you are picking from the “Same Box”. So you DO know.
Posted by Teague
The Shoals, AL
Member since Aug 2007
22277 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:32 pm to
From what I can gather from the little bit of this argument I've read, I think most of you are misunderstanding the intent of the riddle.

You COULD interpret it as:

These things are true. Now you know stuff and reach into a box. What is the probability of getting a gold ball from this point foward?

But, what I'm pretty sure it ACTUALLY means is:

What is the probability you will get a gold ball in the end if each of these steps are followed.

And the answer is 40%.
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91873 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:38 pm to
quote:

would LOVE to play this game if somebody wants to give me 67% odds everytime I pick a gold coin. I'll play all day long.


This is just like they Monty Hall problem. You can deny the math all you want, but ~67% is the way it will work out.
Posted by TH03
Mogadishu
Member since Dec 2008
172004 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:39 pm to
quote:

And the answer is 40%.




Jesus H.
Posted by CptRusty
Basket of Deplorables
Member since Aug 2011
11740 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:39 pm to
quote:

So you DO know.


No. You only know you picked from one of the gold containing boxes, you don't know which one.

There is a greater probability, given you've picked a gold ball, that this ball came from the box with two golds rather than one. Thus, your probability for drawing another gold from the same box is greater than not.
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91873 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:40 pm to
quote:

The initial probability of drawing a certain ball is the same as the probability of drawing that certain ball at any future point.

So if you start with 3 gold balls and 3 silver balls . . . .



If I said Robb, you're going to pick a gold ball the first time you take a ball out of this box.
Would you argue you're equally likely to have picked the half and half box over the all gold box?
This post was edited on 7/23/18 at 12:42 pm
Posted by CptBengal
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
71661 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:42 pm to
quote:

With those rules, it turns out to be 5/6 picking gold again.
GIVEN YOU ALREADY PICKED A GOLD - it's 2/3 you're in the first box, 1/3 you're in the second. That means you would pick a second gold 2/3 * 1 + 1/3 * 1/2 = 5/6


we have a winner!

bonus on the snake script.
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91873 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:45 pm to
quote:


I think it can be assumed the ball isn’t returned


Agreed. The word take implies it was removed and not returned. Regardless, the answer isn't 50%.
Posted by Havoc
Member since Nov 2015
39564 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 12:51 pm to
quote:

No. You only know you picked from one of the gold containing boxes, you don't know which one. There is a greater probability, given you've picked a gold ball, that this ball came from the box with two golds rather than one. Thus, your probability for drawing another gold from the same box is greater than not

Okay, I’m pretty sure I got it based on the two different interpretations or scenarios. Yes assuming not the same/known box being picked from I can see 2/3. But Same box being picked from, 1/2.

Posted by Fe_Mike
Member since Jul 2015
3885 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 1:00 pm to
quote:

I read it that I now have 1 gold ball in my hand, and there is only 1 ball remaining for me to choose from, in THE SAME BOX. Its 50/50 at that point. I either have the AG box or the M box in my hand. There are simply no other options


I have 3 jars of M&M's. One of them (jar 1) is filled with red M&M's. One (jar 2) is filled with blue, and the third (jar 3) is also filled with blue but has 1 red M&M in it. You close your eyes and randomly grab an M&M from any jar you want. It's a red one. If I then make you pick another M&M from the same jar you just grabbed from, what color are you gonna guess it will be?

You know you have either jar 1 or jar 3 in your hand. You don't know which one you picked from for sure. If it came from jar 1 the next M&M will definitely be red. If it came from jar 3 the next M&M will definitely be blue. But you are going to guess red EVERY TIME. And be right a vast majority of the time.
This post was edited on 7/23/18 at 1:02 pm
Posted by Teague
The Shoals, AL
Member since Aug 2007
22277 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 1:01 pm to
quote:

Jesus H


What?

It doesn't say "NOW" what are the odds of drawing a gold ball. That's "simple" math (for math people).

It says "what are the odds while following all these steps." The trick is to not fall for all the eye candy.

The question is actually the same as if all the balls were in a single box.

Posted by CptRusty
Basket of Deplorables
Member since Aug 2011
11740 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 1:04 pm to
you're almost there.


You have to understand that your initial "choice" between the two boxes is not 50/50, because that choice was partially made for you. You MUST pick a gold ball first. Given a completely random distribution of choices that result in pulling a gold ball, 2/3's of those choices will be from the box with two golds, only 1/3 will be from the box with a silver.

Given that 2/3 of the time you will pull from the box with 2 golds, your probability of pulling a second gold is 2/3.

Posted by LordSaintly
Member since Dec 2005
43342 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 1:06 pm to
Given that you have already picked a gold ball (without replacement), these are the possible outcomes for the second draw:

1. Pick the first gold ball in box A
2. Pick the second gold ball in box A
3. Pick the silver ball in box B

2 out of 3 outcomes are favorable, so without reading any responses in this thread, my guess is 66.67%.
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91873 posts
Posted on 7/23/18 at 1:06 pm to
quote:

Okay, I’m pretty sure I got it based on the two different interpretations or scenarios. Yes assuming not the same/known box being picked from I can see 2/3. But Same box being picked from, 1/2.



No.

Think of it this way. The gold balls are G1, G2, and G3. G1 and G2 are in the same box. All we know is that we picked a gold ball, but we don't know which one it is. If it's G1, the chance of the next one being gold is 100%. If it's G2, the chance of the next one being gold is 100%. If it's G3, the chance of the next one being gold is 0%.

Now, we know we've picked a gold ball, and the chances of it being any of those 3 are equal. The chances of the next one being gold are (100% + 100% + 0%)/3 = ~67%.

Hopefully that helps.
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