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Science and Morals - Sam Harris related
Posted on 7/26/20 at 2:30 pm
Posted on 7/26/20 at 2:30 pm
Just wanted to get everyone’s thoughts on the topic.
Harris makes the claim that science, evolution, etc. can provide insight into morality without the subjectivity that occurs across various cultures.
I consider myself indifferent or agnostic. My wife is devoutly catholic and knows my views.
I was reading the Phil Robertson thread and another about us living in the “end-times” and I get aggravated at peoples thoughts and opinions on God. Everyone seems to think they know the answers and all moral truths can be found in the Bible and all a person should do is “accept Jesus as his savior” and all is well. This is such a simplistic view that it makes the the thought of worshipping and following God/Jesus seem so ridiculous.
I wish I could write all my thoughts on the subject but Harris’s views seem so objective and true.
Discuss.
ETA: I love when someone wants to discuss religion or challenges Christianity the downvotes rain down...classic OT.
Harris makes the claim that science, evolution, etc. can provide insight into morality without the subjectivity that occurs across various cultures.
I consider myself indifferent or agnostic. My wife is devoutly catholic and knows my views.
I was reading the Phil Robertson thread and another about us living in the “end-times” and I get aggravated at peoples thoughts and opinions on God. Everyone seems to think they know the answers and all moral truths can be found in the Bible and all a person should do is “accept Jesus as his savior” and all is well. This is such a simplistic view that it makes the the thought of worshipping and following God/Jesus seem so ridiculous.
I wish I could write all my thoughts on the subject but Harris’s views seem so objective and true.
Discuss.
ETA: I love when someone wants to discuss religion or challenges Christianity the downvotes rain down...classic OT.
This post was edited on 7/26/20 at 4:41 pm
12
Posted on 7/26/20 at 3:10 pm to LintLicker
sam harris is not objective. he's a smug a-hole.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 3:14 pm to LintLicker
quote:
I wish I could write all my thoughts on the subject
quote:
thought of worshipping and following God/Jesus seem so ridiculous
That you believe anyone cares what you think seems so ridiculous
Posted on 7/26/20 at 3:18 pm to LintLicker
You should read real Christians instead of being aggravated by cultural Christians.
Watch a Tim Keller interview or read a solid Christian website. Listen to Unbelievable podcast. Or watch Sam Harris fail against William Lane Craig.
Read the words of Jesus.
Audit a seminary course.
Interact with the real thing.
Watch a Tim Keller interview or read a solid Christian website. Listen to Unbelievable podcast. Or watch Sam Harris fail against William Lane Craig.
Read the words of Jesus.
Audit a seminary course.
Interact with the real thing.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 3:19 pm to LintLicker
quote:
I wish I could write all my thoughts on the subject but Harris’s views seem so objective and true.
Why don't you? Perhaps writing them down will allow you to see the fallibility of your thoughts. If you write them down here, I'm sure many fellow posters will gleefully point out the holes in your logic.
Jesus>>>>Sam Harris
This post was edited on 7/26/20 at 3:22 pm
Posted on 7/26/20 at 3:20 pm to TheFlyingTiger
I listened to him every now and then about Buddhism, and then I heard him talk about trump. Kind of odd for someone that smart and have TDS.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 3:33 pm to PeteRose
didn't like him before trump was in politics.
he's smart but hes an arrogant, long winded trust fund baby
he was decent on rogan, and when he owned Affleck's woke arse, but god his show is a self aggrandizing woke arse snoozefest
he's smart but hes an arrogant, long winded trust fund baby
he was decent on rogan, and when he owned Affleck's woke arse, but god his show is a self aggrandizing woke arse snoozefest
Posted on 7/26/20 at 3:39 pm to LintLicker
quote:
Harris makes the claim that science, evolution, etc. can provide insight into morality without the subjectivity that occurs across various cultures.
Well, he is right.
There is a evolutionary or biological reason to all of our societal choices concerning morality. They work themselves out over time.
quote:
was reading the Phil Robertson thread and another about us living in the “end-times”
People have literally been saying we are in the "end times" for as long as humans conceived the idea of "end times". Don't worry about hyper emotional people. They are dumb.
This post was edited on 7/26/20 at 3:40 pm
Posted on 7/26/20 at 3:42 pm to LintLicker
Harris says basically morality is maximizing well being and minimizing suffering in conscious beings. Also that science can help us maximize well being. He would say that it’s good to help someone who is hungry, not because God says to, but because that increases well being and therefore is measurably good.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 4:31 pm to MrWalkingMan
quote:
That you believe anyone cares what you think seems so ridiculous
Dude what a bitch comment. That's all this whole website is...guys giving their opinions and thoughts on whatever topic and all of us responding.
I'm sorry I challenged your world view so much. You obviously are so insecure that having anyone question the foundation of your beliefs makes you feel threatened...what a shitty existence you must live.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 4:35 pm to sabes que
quote:
He would say that it’s good to help someone who is hungry, not because God says to, but because that increases well being and therefore is measurably good.
and the retort would be "why is it good to increase well being"? one can ask that not as a christian, but as someone who takes hume seriously. that an "is can never imply an ought".
Posted on 7/26/20 at 4:39 pm to LCA131
quote:
Perhaps writing them down will allow you to see the fallibility of your thoughts. If you write them down here, I'm sure many fellow posters will gleefully point out the holes in your logic.
Jesus>>>>Sam Harris
First, no doubt Jesus is the most important person in the history of mankind. I would never dispute that. I also would never dispute that Jesus was so unique in his teachings at the time. Lastly, I would say there's probably never been anyone that has had the impact of morality and spirituality as Jesus did...no doubt a great man.
My only point is that morals and morality vary with time/history and location. It makes the argument of "Morals come from God and Christianity" very shaky. Societies views of right/wrong seem to change with what/who they worship and times throughout history when they are worshiped.
Let's start with that point.
ETA: And yes...I would also agree that Harris seems smug and pompous. However you can't dispute he's extremely intelligent and makes great points.
This post was edited on 7/26/20 at 4:45 pm
Posted on 7/26/20 at 4:44 pm to LintLicker
quote:
simplistic view
I don’t necessarily disagree with your post. I would just point out that when it comes to things like the evolution of morality, 99.5% of all people, religious or otherwise, are going to hold an overly simplistic view. It’s not an easy subject for bright minds much less everyone else.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 4:45 pm to Bunsbert Montcroff
He would say because reducing suffering(in this case alleviating hunger) increases well being because it is better to be full than to be hungry. So starving/malnutrition is worse than being satiated/nourished so therefore it’s objectively good to help feed said person.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 4:50 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:
It’s not an easy subject for bright minds much less everyone else.
No doubt it's a difficult subject to ponder, regardless of which side a person is on. I've born/raised/live in small-town, Louisiana my whole life. I just get so angry (and I know I shouldn't b/c it's pointless) at people who have zero interest in contemplating life or spirituality, etc.
It's just baffling when someone takes the Bible or their preacher at face value and then runs with those views. All the while condemning and judging anyone who doesn't fit into their small little mental box of the way God/Jesus is. Everything with modern Christianity seems to be so weaponized and used as a tool to condemn and hate.
Prime example...the other day, Revelator started a topic about "accepting Jesus as your personal savior before it's too late" and "the antichrist" etc. People up-voted like crazy. WTF dude? Seriously? You really think you have it that figured out? If so, he's not god if you can quantify and explain him that easily.
Read for yourself
This post was edited on 7/26/20 at 4:56 pm
Posted on 7/26/20 at 5:09 pm to sabes que
quote:
He would say because reducing suffering(in this case alleviating hunger) increases well being because it is better to be full than to be hungry. So starving/malnutrition is worse than being satiated/nourished so therefore it’s objectively good to help feed said person.
still doesn't address the question. why is it preferential to increase well being? i understand that if you accept that "pain is bad, well-being is good" you can get there.
but hume reminds us that while it might cause pain to kittens to torture them, reason can't tell us it is wrong to cause them pain. you can't get from is to ought. reason/science/logic can't say just because x causes pain, x is wrong. our sentiments, and sympathies tell us that.
i am sure harris has some answer for hume and the is/ought problem and the naturalistic fallacy. but it isn't going to be based in pure objectivity. it is going to acknowledge that sentiment or subjectivity plays some part. now maybe harris isn't using "objective" in the metaphysical sense, and instead using it to mean a logically- consistent system. but as alasdair macintyre (and hume before him) points out, when we get to first principles, it is all a matter of preference.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 5:11 pm to LintLicker
quote:
love when someone wants to discuss religion or challenges Christianity the downvotes rain down...classic OT.
Religion threads aren’t allowed
Posted on 7/26/20 at 5:15 pm to LintLicker
I’m sure Relevator meant well, but he gives no compelling reason for anyone to believe him.
But again, it sounds like you enjoy bashing him rather than investigating things that might make sense.
Are you scared to discover that the other side says good things?
But again, it sounds like you enjoy bashing him rather than investigating things that might make sense.
Are you scared to discover that the other side says good things?
Posted on 7/26/20 at 5:38 pm to bayoubengals88
quote:
But again, it sounds like you enjoy bashing him rather than investigating things that might make sense.
Are you scared to discover that the other side says good things?
I'm sure he did mean well and I honestly am not trying to bash him. I'm sure he's great guy. I was just (unfairly I know) using him and his words as a punching bag for my bigger picture.
And yes I do spend lots of time pondering and thinking about the other side. As I said in the OP, my wife is a devout Catholic (this in itself is wrong to many Protestants) and really sees the world different than most Christians. She's read lots books that are eye-opening but I just can't seem to buy in all the way.
I don't know what I'm after with it all...just curious to hear other people's opinions really.
Posted on 7/26/20 at 5:45 pm to Bunsbert Montcroff
quote:
but hume reminds us that while it might cause pain to kittens to torture them, reason can't tell us it is wrong to cause them pain. you can't get from is to ought. reason/science/logic can't say just because x causes pain, x is wrong.
Yep. It’s the fast track to nihilism. Want to know how the hell entire populations can be led to genocidal tendencies? Look no further than the Reason = Morality approach which Harris advocates. Anything can be rationalized as good for humanity by the right charismatic leader. Nobody thinks THEY are evil.
It’s a naive assumption by Harris.
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