re: Science and Morals - Sam Harris related

Sam's best work

quote:

---

The apostles were all tortured and killed for teaching about Jesus. Do you think they would have been willing to die for a lie? Think about it. Beatings, torture, prison and death. Peter was crucified upside down.

Their is historical evidence that those guys died for preaching about Jesus found outside the bible. Do your own research.

---

You are not wrong, but let's think about this in terms of the thread topic.

How do we get from "the apostles suffered for believing in and teaching about Jesus" to..."DON'T MASTURBATE". Just a few gaps in this argument : )

quote:

---

As I said in the OP, my wife is a devout Catholic (this in itself is wrong to many Protestants) and really sees the world different than most Christians

---

When it comes to these kinds of conversations, I'm totally willing to say that Protestants and Catholics are on the same side.

However, I do think that Catholicism can be a hindrance when it comes to belief vs. unbelief because Catholics promoted the notion that we can reason our way into faith. When ultimately, I don't think that's the biblical view on conversion.

You might be able to relate to this with your inability to "buy in".

quote:

---

I don't know what I'm after with it all...just curious to hear other people's opinions really.

---

Well, its part of who we are to be curious and to ask questions of great significance.

Have you read The Reason for God by Tim Keller? Or Making Sense of God?

I think its obvious that we all worship something. We all seek a sense of meaning. It just seems that those who seek meaning outside of Christ are ultimately disappointed. One hundred percent of the time...
Yeah, that's just my perspective.

What kind of stuff does your wife read? I like First Things. I think you'll see a respectable Christian perspective there.

For a more extensive answer to seemingly meaningless modern rules, they relate to the valiant acts of early Christians and to Christ himself, through one word—sacrifice.

We flee sin, or try to, out of love for God. To do so for any other reason would be crushing...as so many have unfortunately experienced.

quote:

---

What kind of stuff does your wife read?

---

She's big into Richard Rohr. His book The Universal Christ has completely changed her worldview. Many of which I can get behind but maybe I'm just too simple minded to understand it all. I don't know.

quote:

---

If morality is not established by a higher power, then any man’s sense of morality is just as right as the next even if you think theirs is crazy. Literally anything can be justified.

---

This seems to be a common argument from Christians or any theist for that matter. However, I think I could say the same thing to you. If God commands something to be done or good, then there is no arguing that fact and it must therefore be "moral."

The Crusaders thought that God was commanding them to kill and start wars to spread the Christian religion. Many cults molest young children b/c God has told them so (Branch Davidians, LDS branches, etc). Islamists spread the Islamic faith through acts of terrorism and violence. They all have in common this: since God has commanded it, the commandment must be good and virtuous and therefore truth.

You would be hard pressed to find any Christian today that would say "these are all good, moral behaviors because God said so." I feel like all theists point to Hitler and Stalin as what happens when a god is taken out of the picture; this is simply absurd.

I've never gotten a good argument to my previous point: "If morals come from God, then whatever God commands to do must be right." I'd like to know your take.

quote:

---

The Crusaders thought that God was commanding them to kill and start wars to spread the Christian religion. Many cults molest young children b/c God has told them so (Branch Davidians, LDS branches, etc). Islamists spread the Islamic faith through acts of terrorism and violence. They all have in common this: since God has commanded it, the commandment must be good and virtuous and therefore truth.

---

The difference is we would both agree the crusaders or any other of those examples you pointed out were perversions of Christianity and they explicitly go against the teachings of the Bible. The example of Stalin, hitler and other atheists don’t violate their own relativist or subjective view of morality.

quote:

---

If morals come from God, then whatever God commands to do must be right." I'd like to know your take.

---

I enjoy diving into topics like this. It actually strengthens my faith to find the points where there is an unknown or tough issue to grapple with.

I would say in this case you are judging Christianity by the sins of its followers and not the wrongs of its doctrine. In its purest sense, if you judged Christianity on its followers, even the most “moral” or ardent rule follower would fall short and ultimately be bad witnesses for Christ. But that actually is affirmed by scripture and is the very reason we need Jesus in the first place. The obvious violators like the ones you listed make it much easier have this discussion actually.

If you wrote down all the Rules and Proofs of Calculus and then someone came along and taught you how to do them wrong, would you blame Calculus or would you blame the instructor’s ignorance or misunderstanding? I would say the same thing about scripture. Judge Christianity by its doctrine (the Bible), not by the mistakes of its followers.

quote:

---

However, I don't think you can use people dying for a cause as an indication for truth. Islamic terrorists flew jets into buildings to die for their cause. Jim Jones and the People's Temple drank cyanide to get to the afterlife. The Branch Davidians withstood 50+ days of torture at the hands of the US Federal Gov for their beliefs. People die for their beliefs every day and have for the thousands of years of human existence. That doesn't make any of their views more or less true.

---

The difference brother is that the apostles knew Christ personally. They knew whether or not he was God incarnate. Islamic militants do their bidding based off faith alone. The apostles knew Christ on a personal level and still went to their grave preaching in his name. Your talking apples to oranges here bro.