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OT lawyers: waiving negligence via a "hold harmless" document

Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:21 am
Posted by ClientNumber9
Member since Feb 2009
10210 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:21 am
Here's the situation- I prepaid several hundred dollars to participate in an event for my kids and I while on vacation. When I arrived, I was forced to sign a "hold harmless" document just as we were all about to participate in the activity.

I understand that you waive certain rights when participating in high-risk activities such as skydiving or anything to do with wild animals, etc. But the language on many of these agreements are total bullshite.

This one on particular read, "It is my intention by signing this that I will not sue or hold 'xxxxx facility' or its employees liable or responsible for any injury or death or damages, regardless of fault, negligence or gross negligence of this facility or its employees."

In other words, the owner could have an employee that they knew was a crack addict drive a piece of heavy machinery right into a family and there's nothing anyone could do about it from a civil suit perspective?

I know the answer is to simply walk out but I had paid a good deal of money and flown halfway across to country to visit places like this and the waiver was never mentioned on the website. I've seen these waivers more and more often, too, at everything from local fairs to batting cages to sports complexes. The place I visited wasn't particularly dangerous and of course nothing happened, but my question is do these blanket "hold harmless" agreements hold any real legal water?
Posted by etm512
Mandeville, LA
Member since Aug 2005
21060 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:25 am to
From my family of lawyers it is my understanding those waivers are about as good as toilet paper in liability cases
Posted by BayouBandit24
Member since Aug 2010
17247 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:26 am to
You can't waive negligence.
Posted by PrivatePublic
Member since Nov 2012
17848 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:26 am to
No. I could make my neighbor sign an agreement stating that if he enters my house, I will not be held responsible for any harm to his person, but if I kill him there, I am still going t jail.
Posted by Antonio Moss
The South
Member since Mar 2006
49579 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:32 am to
quote:

You can't waive negligence.


Not true.

In Louisiana, you can waive economic damages from negligence but not personal injury
Posted by Antonio Moss
The South
Member since Mar 2006
49579 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:33 am to
quote:

From my family of lawyers it is my understanding those waivers are about as good as toilet paper in liability cases


Depends on type of damage and the state law
Posted by Y.A. Tittle
Member since Sep 2003
111641 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:34 am to
As others have said, anything trying to hold them harmless for their actual negligence is shite.

Want to tell us where this was? I'm a firm believer that people trying to pull crap like this (and worse, being advised by some hack lawyer to do so) should be roundly derided. It's such a dumb PR move.
Posted by True23Tiger
Shreveport
Member since Nov 2007
1803 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:36 am to
quote:

No. I could make my neighbor sign an agreement stating that if he enters my house, I will not be held responsible for any harm to his person, but if I kill him there, I am still going t jail.


Because you broke the law. But what if he fell down some stairs?
Posted by Y.A. Tittle
Member since Sep 2003
111641 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:38 am to
quote:

In Louisiana, you can waive economic damages from negligence but not personal injury


What are the "economic damages" of some sort of claim associated with an attraction like the OP? The form was obviously a horseshite attempt to scare paying customers.
Posted by ClientNumber9
Member since Feb 2009
10210 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:39 am to
quote:


Want to tell us where this was?


Florida. And yeah, it was pretty shady. They sprung this on me last minute, right as it was starting and the kids were all excited. I complained and was told that I'd have to speak with someone in supervision and that might take 45 minutes or so. Meanwhile, the event was occurring in about 10 minutes.
Posted by Antonio Moss
The South
Member since Mar 2006
49579 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:42 am to
quote:

What are the "economic damages" of some sort of claim associated with an attraction like the OP?


Loss of personal property. Employee doesn't secure a locker and a wallet is stolen, etc.


quote:

The form was obviously a horseshite attempt to scare paying customers.


For the most part, yes. They can be used to show knowledge of the risk for comparative fault purposes.

And like is said earlier, these responses are for Louisiana. This law varies state-to-state.
This post was edited on 8/5/17 at 7:47 am
Posted by Antonio Moss
The South
Member since Mar 2006
49579 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:46 am to
Just pulled up some quick law from Florida. They seem to view personal injury waivers more favorable than Louisiana. According the case I just looked at, that waiver is enforceable so long as it clearly spells out that you are waiving claims for personal injury resulting from the employee's negligence.
Posted by whit
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
11079 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:47 am to
This thread just reminded me of when I was a kid I had a friend that had a go kart. His mom made my parents sign a hand written "hold harmless" before I could ride I remember hauling arse back to my house on my bike with that letter and handing it to my mom and her giving me the wtf look
Posted by Y.A. Tittle
Member since Sep 2003
111641 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:47 am to
quote:

For the most part, yes. They can be used to show knowledge of the risk for comparative fault purposes.




shite's more likely to backfire and really piss off a jury.

I've never done plaintiff's work, but I'd kill to be able to go to trial with a form like that on a big legitimate negligence case.

Which is a big reason such forms are really stupid and short-sighted from a legal standpoint.
Posted by Antonio Moss
The South
Member since Mar 2006
49579 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:48 am to
quote:

shite's more likely to backfire and really piss off a jury.


Depends on the facts of the case. And, in certain states, you're trying to get out on Summary Judgment.



quote:

Which is a big reason such forms are really stupid and short-sighted from a legal standpoint.


Apparently not in Florida
This post was edited on 8/5/17 at 7:50 am
Posted by Hangit
The Green Swamp
Member since Aug 2014
47729 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 7:56 am to
I believe you bought your tickets through them, paid your travel fees and for lodging, then got hoodwinked. This caused you great emotional stress by forcing you to change the deal you had made, mid stream.

It was done hoping you would bail in front of your kids and look like a tool. They have caused you heavy anguish and hand writhing and you need to be compensated. Who changes the scope of an agreement at the finish line?

Serious, who did this? What is the name of the dishonest, offending facility?
Posted by tigerpimpbot
Chairman of the Pool Board
Member since Nov 2011
69242 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 8:02 am to
You can't sign away your rights, especially gross negligence in FL. What is the activity?
Posted by udtiger
Over your left shoulder
Member since Nov 2006
117215 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 8:24 am to
The statements regarding such waivers in Louisiana are accurate. Plus, you can never waive intentional conduct.

I would be more concerned with any choice of law/venue provisions.

If the contract chooses the state/country where the activity is taking place, such waivers may be legal under that jurisdictions law.
Posted by TigrrrDad
Member since Oct 2016
8201 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 9:00 am to
I know what you mean - I bought a bottle of peptides once, and it said "not for human consumption" right there on the label. But I'm still gonna sue the crap out of them if my dick falls off.
Posted by ClientNumber9
Member since Feb 2009
10210 posts
Posted on 8/5/17 at 9:17 am to
It was a sea life park/dolphin petting experience. We're out of the northwest and on a drive from New Orleans down to Miami and this was one of that things my kids picked out on the way that looked fun. So we stopped into Gulf World Marine Park in PCB.
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