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re: NOLA Sewerage & Water Board director comments about the flooding.... "Climate Change"

Posted on 8/7/17 at 11:05 am to
Posted by Tall Tiger
Golden Rectangle
Member since Sep 2007
4317 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 11:05 am to
Are you a hydraulic engineer with technical knowledge of those pumps? Where is the evidence that cavitation was an issue?

The City's official position is that the outfall pumps at the 17th Street Canal, London Avenue Canal, and Orleans Avenue Canal were not operational because they are intended for use during a tropical storm surge when the flood gates are closed. Otherwise, I assume the City believes that the floodwater will flow sufficiently through the canals into the lake. Well, that didn't happen nearly fast enough on Saturday.

If there is some reason why those pumps were not operational on Saturday, then it better be a very good reason besides just being some City energy saving or staffing policy.
Posted by tgrbaitn08
Member since Dec 2007
148031 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 11:09 am to
quote:

The City's official position is that the outfall pumps at the 17th Street Canal, London Avenue Canal, and Orleans Avenue Canal were not operational because they are intended for use during a tropical storm surge when the flood gates are closed. Otherwise, I assume the City believes that the floodwater will flow sufficiently through the canals into the lake. Well, that didn't happen nearly fast enough on Saturday.

If there is some reason why those pumps were not operational on Saturday, then it better be a very good reason besides just being some City energy saving or staffing policy.





Why would they need the pumps at the mouth of the outfall canals to be running if the gates were open? That doesnt make any sense
Posted by Quinn225
Member since May 2017
408 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 11:12 am to
quote:

Are you a hydraulic engineer


Yes

quote:

Where is the evidence that cavitation was an issue?


I did not say this.

You cannot turn on pumps to pump dry or without the right head needed. If the pump is too high capacity, having low flow will cause cavitation. Then y'all will be complaining about how the city has to replace these pumps yet again.
Posted by tLSU
Member since Oct 2007
8691 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 11:16 am to
quote:

You cant even look up their salaries


That link is only for City agencies, and the Sewerage and Water Board is not one.
Posted by The Mick
Member since Oct 2010
45198 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 11:23 am to
Pretty sure the levee board is also private (and one of the most corrupt of all) from what I understand.
Posted by Screaming Viking
Member since Jul 2013
5789 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 11:29 am to
placebaux,

IF a contractor is randomly pouring extra concrete in a manhole or catch basin, he should go to jail.

However, what i would imagine he was doing was pouring an invert in the bottom of the catch basin.

Before you ask, this is done to eliminate any sitting water inside of a catch basin. the term used is that "positive flow" must be maintained.

Just trying to help.
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91874 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 11:30 am to
quote:

You cannot turn on pumps to pump dry or without the right head needed. If the pump is too high capacity, having low flow will cause cavitation. Then y'all will be complaining about how the city has to replace these pumps yet again.


Perhaps you can help explain why the cities pumps can handle "only" 3.5 inches of rainfall in a 6 hour period. According to the Rainfall Frequency Atlas, there is a 20% chance that total is exceeded by 2+ inches on an annual basis. There is a 10% chance the total is exceed by 3+ inches, a 4% chance it is exceeded by 4+ inches, and a 1% chance it is exceeded by 5.5+ inches of rainfall.

Let's say the lifetime of those pumps are estimated to be 30 years - there is a 71% chance that their capacity will be exceeded by 4+ inches in a 6 hour time frame during their life expectancy. That seems like a problem.

Posted by Quinn225
Member since May 2017
408 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 11:30 am to
quote:

Pretty sure the levee board is also private (and one of the most corrupt of all) from what I understand.



Levee District is here.

LINK
Posted by Quinn225
Member since May 2017
408 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 12:00 pm to
quote:


Perhaps you can help explain why the cities pumps can handle "only" 3.5 inches of rainfall in a 6 hour period. According to the Rainfall Frequency Atlas, there is a 20% chance that total is exceeded by 2+ inches on an annual basis. There is a 10% chance the total is exceed by 3+ inches, a 4% chance it is exceeded by 4+ inches, and a 1% chance it is exceeded by 5.5+ inches of rainfall.

Let's say the lifetime of those pumps are estimated to be 30 years - there is a 71% chance that their capacity will be exceeded by 4+ inches in a 6 hour time frame during their life expectancy. That seems like a problem.


I don't work for the city. 3.5 inches is a hell of a lot of flow. If you size the pump too large, the pump will not work properly. The canal pump stations are getting a combo of HUGE and small pumps AND VFD's which throttle the pump's speed up and down by a percentage before it decides it needs more capacity. New Orleans may have this elsewhere but I don't know.

LINK

The pumps are not the issue. The issue is the surcharging in the lines before the pump. Needs larger storm lines which they are currently constructing. If only they would have picked precast concrete instead of CIP...the project would be over by now.
Posted by tgrbaitn08
Member since Dec 2007
148031 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 12:07 pm to
quote:

Contrary to what national sources sometimes say, all of New Orleans does not lay below sea level.
But certainly, huge swaths of the city are below sea level, as seen in this graphic.


Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91874 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 12:08 pm to
quote:

I don't work for the city


I understand, just wanted an educated opinion. I appreciate the info.
Posted by BottomlandBrew
Member since Aug 2010
30209 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 12:39 pm to
On a non-technical side, they crunch the numbers and say, "well, it'll take $750 million to upgrade the pumps to handle a bigger storm. Projected property losses for the next 30 years are only $250 million. We can kick the can down the road until it's someone else's problem."

Then you have politicians thinking about the next election. They don't want to tell their constituents that taxes are going up so that they can take more of your money to give to an already fiscally-irresponsible department. Or they don't want to tell a street that we need to demolish all of your homes and turn it in to stormwater detention area. That's a sure fire way to not get elected.

There are a lot of comparisons of New Orleans to The Netherlands. The major difference is that the Dutch plan much further out and without regard to election cycles. Deltaworks is a 100 year plan. That's unheard of in our country. The Dutch bite the bullet, raise funds, take land, and get to moving dirt.

Both politicians and residents of New Orleans pay a lot of lip service to improving drainage, but at the end of the day they will do nothing about it. I spent seven years to working on drainage in that city, and was constantly frustrated with all the talk and no action. We know the problem. We know the solutions. Get to work.
Posted by Placebeaux
Bobby Fischer Fan Club President
Member since Jun 2008
51852 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 12:45 pm to
Understand but the op of that statement said "leftover" so I assume they weren't working on a catch basin.
Posted by hawkster
Member since Aug 2010
6306 posts
Posted on 8/7/17 at 1:01 pm to
So does Mitch have a plan to handle rainwater temporarily until he can be elected president, where he will quickly halt and reverse worldwide climate change?
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