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re: Nobody makes themselves successful
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:51 am to slackster
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:51 am to slackster
quote:
What determines how much you ascribe to it?
You and Salmon are trying to get me to say one of two things:
1. that a person’s base response to any event (their “decision”) is, in fact, itself a product of events that may have occurred to them so far in their developmental past that they are unaware of it.
Or
2. It’s mostly based off genetic predispositions passed on from parents.
Nurture vs. Nature
I disagree with this simplistic duality, however. A person can make the conscious decision to reject either one or both of these influences upon thoughtful reflection.
Your perception of life does not have to be thrust upon you. You are capable of taking it into your own hands.
This post was edited on 8/26/19 at 11:52 am
2
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:51 am to slackster
quote:
This is why I asked how you could even go about disproving determinism/fatalism/whateverism
Well It's philosophical so there's no real way to prove
However nothing is absolute. I firmly believe we have the ability to chart our own course within reason though. I do not believe we are bound by pre determined factors. Influenced? Most. Bound? Hell no.
This post was edited on 8/26/19 at 11:57 am
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:56 am to slackster
quote:
This is why I asked how you could even go about disproving determinism/fatalism/whateverism
They’re supported or opposed through actions. Not words.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:02 pm to Decisions
I’m most certainly not asking you to choose between nature vs nurture
It’s quite the opposite in fact
It’s quite the opposite in fact
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:05 pm to Gray12
quote:
Everyone who is rich and successful right now are there because of a series of lucky events, rare opportunities and external factors outside our control.
Luck and timing are contributing factors. They are not determining factors.
People who think otherwise are usually bitter about their own failures - and that is played out in their personal politics.
The fatalistic attitude displayed in the passages quoted in the OP reek of that kind of bitterness. If the author were correct, there would be no point in trying to improve yourself as your family, race, and timing already predetermined your position in life. A lot of rural white Americans as well as African Americans feel like that today, and it's a terrible attitude to have.
None of us get to choose our race, the circumstances of our birth, or our parents. Those factors out of our control definitely contribute to our success or failure in life - but they don't determine our success or failure.
This post was edited on 8/26/19 at 12:12 pm
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:08 pm to ZappBrannigan
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/21/20 at 9:05 am
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:09 pm to Salmon
quote:
I’m most certainly not asking you to choose between nature vs nurture
You misunderstand me. I’m not saying you’re asking for a choice. I’m saying your asking for admittal that these are the only options. That free will is in fact an illusion, as we are bound by the influences of our environment or predispositions.
As I said, I reject that dichotomy.
This post was edited on 8/26/19 at 12:10 pm
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:14 pm to Decisions
quote:
I disagree with this simplistic duality,
Totally.
I think that the idea of any influence or input cancelling the idea of free will is wrong. In reality we mostly base decisions on things we know. Not always though, prodigies are an example
But that doesn't mean it's predetermined.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:14 pm to Gray12
TLDRWHMS
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:22 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Bound? Hell no.
I would agree we're not bound, because who knows what external factors will occur. However, our starting point is predetermined, and that starting point determines how we react to our first external factor, which influences our next external factor reaction, and so on and so forth.
In order for our path to change, some external factor has to occur, and that factor is out of our control.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:24 pm to slackster
quote:
In order for our path to change, some external factor has to occur
I disagree.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:26 pm to Decisions
quote:
That free will is in fact an illusion, as we are bound by the influences of our environment or predispositions.
As I said, I reject that dichotomy.
And that's fine
like I said earlier, most people are willing to go to a certain point, but are not willing to go all the way
and, of course, it is something that is currently is not provable, so its perfectly fine for people to reject the idea
I just think it makes the most logical sense
This post was edited on 8/26/19 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:28 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
I disagree.
Think about it though - if you're capable of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps without any outside influence, after years of the wrong decisions, you were ALWAYS capable of that. It was intrinsic and innate.
Your position seems to suggest EVERYONE has that. My position is that some - even if only a few - simply do not.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:30 pm to Gray12
As someone who used to enjoy his books, it is my opinion that Malcolm Gladwell jumped the shark several books ago.
You can learn as much from failures as you can successes and you sure as hell will remember the lessons longer.
You can learn as much from failures as you can successes and you sure as hell will remember the lessons longer.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:30 pm to slackster
quote:
In order for our path to change, some external factor has to occur, and that factor is out of our control.
This is insulting to the idea of self awareness.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:31 pm to slackster
I reject the idea that external inputs are always controlling factors.
People sometimes make decisions without much influence. Certainly controlling influence
People sometimes make decisions without much influence. Certainly controlling influence
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:32 pm to Decisions
quote:
This is insulting to the idea of self awareness.
so people just magically gain self awareness?
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:33 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
People sometimes make decisions without much influence. Certainly controlling influence
but how do we know?
how do you know what influences and what doesn't?
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:34 pm to Salmon
quote:
but how do we know?
Are all of your decisions controlled by external forces? Becaus that's definitely fatalistic.
Mine are not
Posted on 8/26/19 at 12:36 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Are all of your decisions controlled by external forces? Becaus that's definitely fatalistic.
I don't know. I think the most logical conclusion is that they are controlled by a whole host of things beyond our control.
quote:
Mine are not
Again. Not very free thinking.
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