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Started By
Message
2
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:04 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Absolutely not.
yet we have all kinds of people getting very uncomfortable about the idea in this very thread
you continually dodge my questions, why is that?
quote:
Accepting fatalism
I'm curious as to why you keep bringing up fatalism here, as no one else has brought it up
determinism does not equal fatalism FTR
This post was edited on 8/26/19 at 11:05 am
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:06 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Accepting fatalism is extremely comforting to people who prefer security and the status quo. I used to be one of these people.
How would you even go about disproving fatalism?
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:06 am to Salmon
quote:
determinism does not equal fatalism FTR
One is a component of the other. Both are submissive, pre-determinist fallacies.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:11 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
One is a component of the other.
how so?
quote:
Both are submissive, pre-determinist fallacies.
this whole "submissive" attitude you have seems to be some sort of projection
a person can be quite happy and successful in life while still being a determinists
why does it have to have a negative connotation with you?
why is having an understanding of what drives our decisions a bad thing?
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:12 am to Salmon
quote:
this whole "submissive" attitude you have seems to be some sort of projection
That's pretty much in the definition. Determinism believes circumstances rule the will.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:14 am to Salmon
quote:
how much effect?
Exactly as much as you ascribe to it. That’s it. It’s not complicated.
quote:
is it though? perhaps you are just genetically more like your mom which causes you to side with her?
I’d say I’m genetically exactly half like my mom and half like my dad.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:15 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
That's pretty much in the definition. Determinism believes circumstances rule the will.
Well no, that is the definition of fatalism.
This is the very significant difference.
Fatalism focuses on the outcome.
Determinism focuses on the drivers.
Focusing on the drivers is the far more insightful view, as it allows us to learn and correct past mistakes.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:16 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Determinism believes circumstances rule the will.
It certainly matters to a significant extent.
I can get behind the idea we're a product of our circumstances AND some natural compass, but not necessarily the same compass.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:16 am to Salmon
quote:
Determinism focuses on the drivers
Drivers can be overcome.
Therefore it's not universal law
We probably have very different views of success as well.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:17 am to Salmon
quote:
as it allows us to learn and correct past mistakes.
Sounds like freewill
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:17 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Drivers can be overcome.
by other drivers...
quote:
We probably have very different views of success as well.
I doubt they are that far from each other
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:17 am to Salmon
quote:
which is why it makes so many people uncomfortable to discuss it
I, personally, think it is beyond fascinating and believe we should focus more on it
if we can determine why people do things more effectively, I think we could have a much better society
Certain parts, yes, but if you tell people the largest reason they do bad things is external factors, they will use it as an excuse to not put forth any effort.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:18 am to Salmon
quote:
other drivers...
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:18 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Sounds like freewill
not if the we didn't decide on what allowed us to recognize and learn from the mistakes
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:18 am to Decisions
quote:
Exactly as much as you ascribe to it. That’s it. It’s not complicated.
But it is complicated.
What determines how much you ascribe to it?
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:20 am to Jcorye1
quote:
but if you tell people the largest reason they do bad things is external factors, they will use it as an excuse to not put forth any effort.
Yeah. I get it.
But if scientist study IQs based on race and determine that some races have lower IQs, racists will use that as affirmation
Does that mean we shouldn't study things based on race because we are afraid how some people will use the outcome?
Same rules apply here IMO
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:21 am to Salmon
quote:
not if the we didn't decide on what allowed us to recognize and learn from the mistakes
absolutely.
Basically you're saying learning and applying choices is derpterministic, which is false. We aren't bound by circumstance
This post was edited on 8/26/19 at 11:23 am
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:21 am to Salmon
Looks like you boys are simply arguing in circles.
Posted on 8/26/19 at 11:23 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Basically you're saying learning and applying choices is derpterministic, which is false
I don't know what that word is
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