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Started By
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re: Let’s have a WWI discussion. Which country is most at fault for it?
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:40 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:40 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
They made that plan because they knew they would never be able to win a two front war otherwise. Are you saying that Germany shouldn’t have come up with warplans that would’ve maximized their chances at winning the war? One in which France wanted after 1871-1872. It wasn’t exactly a mystery that they’d fight again.
Hell, France had warplans of their own before WWI started on what to do should they get in another war with Germany.
Exactly. What most people don’t know today, thanks to the history books being written by the victors of WWI, is that France was itching to get back at Germany for losing the Franco-Prussian War a generation earlier. And let’s not forget, the Franco-Prussian War was started by France as well.
France had a long history of invading German lands. The Germans finally got smart and decided they were not going to let the French get in the first punch again.
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 3:41 pm
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Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:40 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
I'm blaming the Moops
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:41 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
The fact that the Schlieffen Plan existed long before is proof.
You don’t think every military has plans of what they’d do if x happens?
Exactly. The US even had plans for war with the UK as late as the 1930s. Every one else as well. Other governments were no different.
Color coded war plans 1920s and 30s
Germany was certainly no victim, but Russia was also licking its chops to be a bigger and more respected geopolitical player.
The French were still butthurt about the last time the Germans beat their arse in 1870 (And France started that one).
Even though it was a small player, Serbia deserves some blame. Many in its government were fully aware of the activities of Apus and the Black Hand. Serbian nationalists at that time were goddamn insane. Read about how they took out their monarchs about a decade earlier. A crazy and extremely violent story.
Austria-Hungary knew Germany had its back so acted like a wimp who knows the strong kid will protect him from the other strong kid (Russia). Its ultimatum to Serbia is somewhat understandable given that the government almost absolutely knew about Nationalist terrorists in AH, but at the same time, that ultimatum was not something any self respecting nation state would ever seriously consider acquiescing to. So basically, the Austrians knew they were kicking off a war by issuing the ultimatum.
The UK's arms race with Germany added to the problem.
Bottom line, the balance of power system put in place by Metternich after the Napoleonic Wars had fully run its course. Bismarck was able to keep it going (to a degree) late in the 19th century, but after he was gone, the Germans sought a British/French style empire too.
Perhaps World War I is a case study in why holding on to "world orders" built after wars nearly a century earlier can be a bad thing.
Cough, cough UN. Cough Cough NATO.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:46 pm to X123F45
quote:
The same guy if memory serves right.
Grabbed a sandwich and was sulking. Walks outside... And there's his target.
Lol, crazy stuff... don't think the first (grenade) attack was Princip but the whole thing is a bit comical. It's said that Archduke Ferdinand actually caught the grenade that was thrown into his open "limo" and tossed it back out... pretty badass move IMO but that they kept on with no increase in security really adds to the dumbass factor. The new driver had not even been told this happened earlier in the day, made a turn the wrong way into the crowd, a military officer shouted for him to "STOP"!! ...turns out the car had no reverse gear and Franz Ferdinand was a sitting duck for Princip who more or less stumbled into that opportunity. This, of course, is credited for setting the fuse for WW1 but if you look back, I would bet the Ottoman Empire's bringing the spread of Muslim faith and followers into this region was also a factor that helped destabilize Europe somewhere in the recipe for that war. Any history guys??
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 3:50 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:50 pm to Darth_Vader
I get that. Russia and Germany are of equal blame IMO. See sentence before quote.
France should have put pressure on Russia to stay out. Serbia and Austria Hungary having a little slap around would have been a non-event on the world scale.
France should have put pressure on Russia to stay out. Serbia and Austria Hungary having a little slap around would have been a non-event on the world scale.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:51 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
Everybody regurgitating hardcore history in here. Glad to see you degenerates are educating yourselves while sitting in br traffic
They Shall Not Grow Old was magnificent. Saw it at the theater a couple months ago.
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 3:52 pm
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:51 pm to jdutto3
quote:
If World War One was a bar fight
So, assassinating Archduke Ferdinand was tantamount to a little beer on the trousers?
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:52 pm to tigahbruh
Another country that has at least some blame for WWI is none other than the United States of America. While we played no role in starting the war, we played a pivotal role in keeping it going. We did this by our massive loans to the allies and also proving them with massive amounts of war material. Without American money amd materials, the Allies could not have persisted in the war like they did. And along with this, while we provided help to the Allies, we cut off all aid to Germany. While the US honored the British blockade of Germany, we didn’t honor the German Blockade of Britian.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:53 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
France should have put pressure on Russia to stay out.
France was never going to do that. They were looking for any excuse to have a war against Germany.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:53 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Start here.... Dan Carlin's Hardcore History
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:58 pm to tigahbruh
quote:
The UK's arms race with Germany added to the problem.
In hindsight, I don’t think that was as much a reason for the war as people like to say. There was only one major engagement on the seas and it ended with the British beating the Germans pretty handedly. Scheer got his T crossed twice.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 3:59 pm to MiDixon Yermouth
quote:
Ottoman Empire's bringing the spread of Muslim faith and followers into this region was also a factor that helped destabilize Europe somewhere in the recipe for that war
A much broader question. One might also argue that the weakening and destabilizing of the Ottoman Empire was a major player in the lead-up to the war. Similar to Austria-Hungary. These weak empires included many ethnic groups who were no longer getting the benefits of living within a big empire but still had no say in their own governance. Beginning with Greece and then going into the Balkans and North Africa, ethnonationalism clearly played a role in creating the chemical mixture lit by Princip.
To your question, if the Ottomans had not conquered Southeastern Europe and parts of western/central Asia to begin with, things would be very different, but how far back do we go? Can say the same about just about any Empire's role in spreading its values, policies, religions, etc.
But I would also say that you'd probably get a lot of agreement from Armenians, Georgians, Greeks, Christian Lebanese, etc. Especially Armenians, the descendants of those who survived their holocaust at the hands of the Turks.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 4:02 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Another country that has at least some blame for WWI is none other than the United States of America. While we played no role in starting the war, we played a pivotal role in keeping it going. We did this by our massive loans to the allies and also proving them with massive amounts of war material. Without American money amd materials, the Allies could not have persisted in the war like they did. And along with this, while we provided help to the Allies, we cut off all aid to Germany. While the US honored the British blockade of Germany, we didn’t honor the German Blockade of Britian.
I thought about putting us in the OP, but I didn’t think we had enough to do with kicking the conflict off to warrant a mention. However, I do agree that we were one of the main reasons the war went on and on. If we’d have thrown in our hats earlier (with either side, in my opinion) the war would’ve ended maybe an entire year or two sooner.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 4:04 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
Russia. Shouldn’t have mobilized their military and escalated the situation between Austria-Hungary and Serbia
Posted on 4/4/19 at 4:06 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
France they wanted Alsace Lorraine back and realized demographics were against them, saw an opportunity and they took it.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 4:08 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
France should have put pressure on Russia to stay out.
France applied pressure for Russia to mobilize, they had been funding railroads in Russia for years to allow such a mobilization, and the time was ripe for a two front war with Germany. France and Serbia wanted the war. Everyone else was just rather stupid.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 4:09 pm to beerJeep
quote:
If Britain would have stayed out, a lot of innocent men wouldn’t have died for nothing
Sure, there are a few dozen "if's" that would have prevented the catastrophe that we got.
If Germany does not invade through Belgium the Brits probably stay out.
If the Russians were not incompetent they could have knocked the Germans out early.
If the Brits do not seize the Turkish battleships there is no Gallipoli.
If the Belgians do not fight back.
If the Archduck's driver doesn't screw up.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 4:11 pm to rmnldr
quote:
Russia. Shouldn’t have mobilized their military
Bingo. Before Russian mobilization war was avoidable. The diplomats were making the decisions before that point. But one Russia began mobilization, that effectively made a general European war unavoidable.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 4:16 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
While the US honored the British blockade of Germany, we didn’t honor the German Blockade of Britian.
US interests always come first. Our trade with Britain was far more important to our economy than trade with Germany.
I'm not arguing against you but I am questioning one point: The US arms industry was nothing compared to what it became during WWII. Much of our military equipment going into the war in 1917/1918 was French and British. Was our "war material" support really capable of making a difference?
I fully concede your point on war loans (most of which were never paid back before we had to go back in and save those countries again after 1941)
When Germany re-instituted unconditional sub warfare in 1917, the US had no choice.
Once the US was in, we played a significant role in quickly ensuring Allied victory and ending the war. Regardless of who started it, Britain and France represented liberal (original definition of word), representative governments that we needed to support and keep going as the norm of Western Civilization.
Many argue that if we didn't intervene, the war wouldve ended as a draw and the treaty would not have punished Germany, thus ensuring WWII. I don't buy that argument. This movie was always going to have a bigger, louder sequel in my opinion.
Posted on 4/4/19 at 4:17 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
I think the Belgians would argue that Germany’s crossing the border is in direct violation of their neutrality clause which was guaranteed in 1839.
Germany didn’t exist in 1839 baw.
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