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re: Is going to a ‘bad’ Law School worth doing?
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:43 am to Mo Jeaux
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:43 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Can you people stop spreading this "common wisdom" as if it's gospel truth?
I don't know why people spread this when it's verifiably not true. It's like non-legal people are obsessed with there being no difference in how this stuff is viewed from profession to profession.
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Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:45 am to Pettifogger
Big law is the least of a T3 or T4 student's worry. Having a diploma from a bottom tier law school puts you behind with government jobs (federal, state, and in bigger cities) and mid-size to smaller firms that put any weight into where you went to law school.
This post was edited on 3/10/20 at 11:46 am
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:47 am to OweO
quote:
Bad or good you still have to pass the LSAT.
No such thing as passing/failing the LSAT. Perhaps you mean the bar?
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:47 am to yankeeundercover
quote:
After your first clerkship, if it’s decent, no one gives a shite unless you went to one of the elite, toppest of the top tier Law Schools.
Depends on what we mean by clerkships.
Local clerkships/externships are available to lower tier law students. But nobody is getting good federal or top state clerkships from lower tier schools (ok, someone probably is, but it's very rare). And those are the clerkships that genuinely make you money and lead to the situations you're talking about.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:47 am to Tactical Turtleneck
I know lobbyists that have JDs from LSU and Southern. I know judges and lawyers that have JDs from both. I know an FBI agent with one from Vandy. Know a guy that went to Yale law and works in the NOLA public defender office; another friend to Harvard law and works at the justice dept. Like most of anything, it's what u make of it with hustle, connections, and clerkships.
This post was edited on 3/10/20 at 11:52 am
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:51 am to AbitaFan08
quote:
Once you graduate from law school (and pass the bar), you're a lawyer. No one tends to give a shite where you went.
Not really true. Especially when looking for your first or second job out of school. That said, having lots of connections and/or having good work experience and/or making really good grades, having great extracurriculars, etc. can certainly make prospective employers not concern themselves nearly as much with which law school you attended.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:51 am to NIH
quote:
Big law is the least of a T3 or T4 student's worry. Having a diploma from a bottom tier law school puts you behind with government jobs (federal, state, and in bigger cities) and mid-size to smaller firms that put any weight into where you went to law school.
For sure. I deal with 5-10 attorney shops all the time that are relatively sophisticated firms but are in suburbs or the like. Most of their clients are small/medium businesses. So these aren't elitist guys.
None of those attorneys are ever from T4 type schools. A lot of them may be from regional schools, like Georgia State or Mercer. But very rarely are they from John Marshall or Southern, etc.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:51 am to Pettifogger
quote:
And sure, there are parallels to other career paths. To me, going to a bad law school and striking it big is akin to being an entrepreneur. Most will fail or settle for less than they originally wanted. A very small number will become highly successful.
But the reality is a lot of people who are paying 6 figures to go to school and spending 7+ years doing it aren't doing that so they can roll the dice on entrepreneurship. They want established roles in established areas at established firms/businesses with established pay scales and partnership tracks or stock options or whatever. Sure, they'll get outpaced by a Southern grad or two, but they're going to make more than 95% of them (or that's the plan). Higher initial investment, more consistent payoff.
BINGO. The types of people who are very successful solo practitioners are the types of people who didn't need a law degree to be successful. If they hadn't gone to law school they would have ended up owning a successful car dealership or an insurance agency. People get graduate degrees so that they can AVOID the risk and daily grind of a job like owning a dealership or insurance sales. They get degrees so that they can become high paid employees with stability, retirement, and vacations. T3 or even T2 law schools do not provide you with that stability if you don't already have connections in the legal world. All they do is give you the degree and then tell you to go grind away trying to make it on your own. You don't need a law degree to make good money grinding as an entrepreneur. If anything, most other markets like insurance are less competitive and higher paying if you are willing to put in the same hours it would have taken to be successful in injury law.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:54 am to theronswanson
quote:
If you can get in to any law school you are in the top ten percent of intelligence among the general public
Top ten percent is an IQ at about 120. That is the average for physicians in the US. Law students aren't approaching top ten percent as an average much less the Law grads.Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:54 am to NIH
Can be an occupational hazard....leads to a lot of unwanted activity especially with members of the opposite sex who are not necessarily your spouse.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:55 am to Duckhammer_77
quote:
I know lobbyists that have JDs from LSU and Southern. I know judges and lawyers that have JDs from both. I know an FBI agent with one from Vandy. Like most of anything, it's what u make of it.
A law degree from Vandy is like starting a race a few hundred yards ahead of a guy from Southern. Sure, the Southern guy might be able to get to the finish too, but it's harder and all things being equal, why would you want to start from the back?
If it's your only choice and you're willing to do the work and you can do it without crippling debt and being a lawyer (rather than making money) is your top goal - by all means go to Southern. Seriously. I'm not being a dick, that's the way it should be viewed IMO. A guy who wants to be a lawyer above all else should go to school wherever they can.
But if you want to do it for money or because it's a good career, etc. - you need to soberly analyze the cost-benefit.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:57 am to Pettifogger
quote:
For sure. I deal with 5-10 attorney shops all the time that are relatively sophisticated firms but are in suburbs or the like. Most of their clients are small/medium businesses. So these aren't elitist guys.
yep. Lots of small shops in Houston that practice in only one area of the law that are filled with U of H, Baylor, Texas Tech, SMU, LSU, etc. grads but not so much Texas Southern or South Texas.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 11:58 am to KiwiHead
quote:
Can be an occupational hazard....leads to a lot of unwanted activity especially with members of the opposite sex who are not necessarily your spouse.
Most lawyers are dorks. In law school you basically find a group of normal people within the first week or three and stick to studying and hanging with them for three years.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 12:03 pm to OweO
quote:
once you become a lawyer, the school you went to doesn't prevent you from working hard, proving yourself and creating the best opportunities as possible.
You also don't need a law degree to do any of that. Law school is a $250,000 or more investment when you consider the tuition, and even more importantly, the opportunity cost of missing out on what you could have been doing while you were in law school. Your friends are out making 60k a year and getting 3 years of job experience in their professions while you are in law school.
When you graduate law school, your friends have already received their first big promotion and raise, and are debt free. The law degree leaves you with zero experience, 150k of debt, and very few marketable skills. If you struggle to find a first job as an attorney (strong chance) you are now a pariah in the non-legal job market. No recruiter will give you a chance because they view you as overqualified and someone who wouldn't actually be happy in the role. No employer wants to feel like they are your backup plan. They suspect you will leave them as soon as you get a law job. A JD applying for a non JD job out of law school is seen as a failure by recruiters. It is as damaging to your career as getting fired from your first job. It takes years of working in a non JD job to get rid of this stigma.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 12:07 pm to NIH
quote:
yep. Lots of small shops in Houston that practice in only one area of the law that are filled with U of H, Baylor, Texas Tech, SMU, LSU, etc. grads but not so much Texas Southern or South Texas.
I'd put public, urban laws schools as the best bang for buck option for those who are considering mid/lower tier schools. Georgia State and UH for example. They aren't elitist, they're very practical in their approach, and they have existing relationships with government agencies/big law/medium law/public interest/in house opportunities.
Unfortunately the secret is out on these places so they've steadily climbed the rankings and are often T1 or T2 schools now.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 12:17 pm to Pettifogger
You're much better off going to those schools than a big state school with no real urban centers. Ole Miss, Arkansas, South Carolina, etc. don't really make sense to me if you aren't looking to stay in those towns.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 12:17 pm to MillerLiteTime
But most attorneys are not graduates of Top 25 Law Schools. I'm not even sure what that means....Top 25.....or if it is any indicator of competence in the practice of law or favorable outcomes for clients.
For some reason most outside of the profession have a view of Top tier schools and their graduates that is not objectively deserved. There is this reverential view of schools primarily along the East Coast, primarily in New England and the mid Atlantic, that objectively they don't deserve
Whereas people like Scalia, Kavanaugh and Thomas are smart guys, they really don't have records of actually practicing the law, representing people...individuals, etc. Look at most of their CV's. Most of their experience has been on the governmental end. Maybe some of them spent nominal time in US Attorneys offices.
I'm just saying the hard work in the Law is done by people who went to schools like Memphis, LSU, Loyola, Western Michigan, etc..
Granted, guys from those Top 25 can be good, and often times more than competent and some can be great Rainmakers for their firms. But the scappers get the job done and make it all work
For some reason most outside of the profession have a view of Top tier schools and their graduates that is not objectively deserved. There is this reverential view of schools primarily along the East Coast, primarily in New England and the mid Atlantic, that objectively they don't deserve
Whereas people like Scalia, Kavanaugh and Thomas are smart guys, they really don't have records of actually practicing the law, representing people...individuals, etc. Look at most of their CV's. Most of their experience has been on the governmental end. Maybe some of them spent nominal time in US Attorneys offices.
I'm just saying the hard work in the Law is done by people who went to schools like Memphis, LSU, Loyola, Western Michigan, etc..
Granted, guys from those Top 25 can be good, and often times more than competent and some can be great Rainmakers for their firms. But the scappers get the job done and make it all work
Posted on 3/10/20 at 12:20 pm to Tactical Turtleneck
Ask Hair Helmet
Posted on 3/10/20 at 12:24 pm to KiwiHead
To be clear, few people are saying you have to go to a T14 to be a real lawyer.
But the T3 and T4 schools we're discussing (I think) are a lot different than LSU. When I shite on bad law schools I'm primarily talking about private and for profit law schools that are ranked poorly and have terrible metrics. They cost as much or more as good public law schools and have 1/10th of the outcomes. They shouldn't exist, TBH.
But the T3 and T4 schools we're discussing (I think) are a lot different than LSU. When I shite on bad law schools I'm primarily talking about private and for profit law schools that are ranked poorly and have terrible metrics. They cost as much or more as good public law schools and have 1/10th of the outcomes. They shouldn't exist, TBH.
Posted on 3/10/20 at 12:26 pm to Tactical Turtleneck
quote:
Is going to a ‘bad’ Law School worth doing?
only if it's (1) very cheap and (2) you have an in somewhere to get a foot in the door, likely away from major coastal/urban areas
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