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Started By
Message
re: Indiana Mother Sues Principal, Teacher For Forcing Son to do Pledge of Allegiance
Posted on 6/9/17 at 12:44 pm to Monsieur le Duc
Posted on 6/9/17 at 12:44 pm to Monsieur le Duc
quote:
Obviously this story will get the resident Toby Keiths on this site all riled up, but at the end of the day, free speech is one of our country's greatest assets. Americans enjoy more liberty in this respect than citizens of almost every other developed country - particularly in Europe. It's absurd to think you can force an American citizen to pledge allegiance to anything, much less a flag.
This is the greatest country in the history of human civilization because of the civil liberties enshrined in our Constitution, our independent judiciary, and the peaceful transition of executive power. Not because of a flag, or the national anthem, or the English language, or the Ten Commandments, or Jesus. It's difficult to reconcile the American Revolution with the "my country, right or wrong" attitude that seems so prevalent among some people these days.
Refusing to recite the pledge is weird. But it's none of my fricking business because we live in a free country.
All of this.
The only mistake the kid made was thinking he had to give a reason for not reciting the pledge.
0
Posted on 6/9/17 at 12:49 pm to Corporal Beavis
quote:
it mentions "one nation under God" which really shouldn't be there since there's this thing called separation of church and state.
SCOTUS has ruled on this as well and held that the phrase is mere symbolic and not an excessive entanglement between church and state. It's fine.
Posted on 6/9/17 at 12:55 pm to VaBamaMan
quote:
It's a very strange oath to ask of kids.
I think we should go back to the original salute so people can really see how strange it is.
Posted on 6/9/17 at 12:56 pm to TigernMS12
quote:
Do we now not believe in a parents right to raise to their children as they see fit ( which btw is a fundamental right, so long as your not teaching illegal things)?
I mean, I'm fine with her doing so. It's her prerogative. Everybody indoctrinates their children to some degree.
Doesn't mean I can't feel sorry for the kid.
This post was edited on 6/9/17 at 12:57 pm
Posted on 6/9/17 at 12:59 pm to Will Cover
I don't agree with the "indivisble" part of the pledge. Maybe I should start my own protest.
Posted on 6/9/17 at 1:06 pm to Tigerfan56
quote:
I've always found the "Pledge of Allegiance" to be a very weird/authoritarian type of ritual. Pledging allegiance to your country every morning at school? That just seems weird AF.
I also find it creepy. I don't say it. However, when I'm at an event where it is said (like a school event for my kids), I stand with everyone else in respect for those to whom it does mean something that isn't creepy indoctrination. I just don't say the words or make a big deal about not saying them. Nobody has ever noticed or said anything about it.
This post was edited on 6/9/17 at 1:16 pm
Posted on 6/9/17 at 1:07 pm to VaBamaMan
quote:
Do we now not believe in a parents right to raise to their children as they see fit ( which btw is a fundamental right, so long as your not teaching illegal things)?
I mean, I'm fine with her doing so. It's her prerogative. Everybody indoctrinates their children to some degree.
Doesn't mean I can't feel sorry for the kid.
I agree with that. I even feel sorry for the kid. With that said, no one is going to tell me how to raise mine.
Posted on 6/9/17 at 2:01 pm to TigernMS12
At my public school, the hardcore Protestant teachers often told us how the godless Russians "brainwashed" their children.
But every day they made us stand and pledge allegiance to the US flag, sing patriotic songs, and pray before lunch.
Cue Alanis Morissette.
But every day they made us stand and pledge allegiance to the US flag, sing patriotic songs, and pray before lunch.
Cue Alanis Morissette.
Posted on 6/9/17 at 2:14 pm to Will Cover
This is the America millennials are creating.
Posted on 6/9/17 at 2:20 pm to kywildcatfanone
quote:
kywildcatfanone
quote:
This is the America millennials are creating.
Definitely all the millennials fault; never mind that SCOTUS case from 1943 where the held forcing a child to recite the pledge is unconstitutional.This post was edited on 6/9/17 at 2:30 pm
Posted on 6/9/17 at 2:35 pm to Will Cover
quote:
an elementary school principal and teacher for forcing her son to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance.
This is creepy as frick btw.
Posted on 6/9/17 at 7:38 pm to TigernMS12
Symbolic of what?
Posted on 6/9/17 at 7:45 pm to Will Cover
No one should ever be forced to pledge allegiance to any country, but no first grader thinks like this. This mom is trying to get money for her own feelings, not those of her son.
Posted on 6/9/17 at 7:50 pm to kywildcatfanone
quote:
This is the America millennials are creating.
Kids have been not standing for the pledge for several decades now.
FWIW, I work at probably one of the more liberal schools in our district. We recite the pledge every morning. Some kids stand and recite it, some don't. Everybody is pretty respectful towards both because it's a pretty basic representation of our First Amendment.
And then everybody moves on. Maybe the grownups should do that more often.
Posted on 6/9/17 at 7:51 pm to Will Cover
quote:
When asked why he didn’t salute the flag, according to the lawsuit, the child stated, “he was doing it to protest the government of the United States, as it was racist, greedy and does not care about people.”
Well it's about damn time someone said it.
Posted on 6/9/17 at 7:51 pm to Wayne Campbell
quote:
in a sky-man.
this ignorant monicker has really been making the rounds lately--did you learn that from your atheist religious thought leader, or is it just coincidence (like the formation of order ex nihilo) that every self-proclaimed knower of all things is using the same term?
Posted on 6/9/17 at 7:53 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
it's a pretty basic representation of our First Amendment
i could give two shits about a minor's freedom of speech.
but i could also give two shits about the pledge, to be honest--it's kind of creepy to me.
so i guess i don't give a shite about any of these people.
eta: i pretty much agree with Wildcat:
quote:
No one should ever be forced to pledge allegiance to any country, but no first grader thinks like this. This mom is trying to get money for her own feelings, not those of her son.
This post was edited on 6/9/17 at 7:55 pm
Posted on 6/9/17 at 7:57 pm to McLemore
quote:
i could give two shits about a minor's freedom of speech.
That's unfortunate.
I don't think they deserve any monetary damages and she definitely fed him that BS. But looking at it from the school's perspective, you have to be an idiot to really force the issue to the point that they did. Part of the problem in our education system these days is getting up in arms about this while ignoring the larger issues in the public school system.
Lots of grown up mistakes on this one that could've prevented the shitshow.
Posted on 6/9/17 at 8:09 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
That's unfortunate.
i was exaggerating--my views are more nuanced on this issues than i care to go into on a friday night on the OT. I normally expand my concern for the First Amendment beyond its technical application, due to the perils of a culture that doesn't value freedom of speech, expression and religious exercise. In other words, the argument that, "Well, it isn't government action, so there is no free-speech concern" is weak. Laws and application of laws follow culture.
But pitted against that is my disdain for the idea that kids should enjoy the same rights as adults and should be able to say and do what they want.
I'm not sure how the proper balance strikes, but there is tension within me here.
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