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re: Has biological weapons become a bigger threat than nukes?
Posted on 4/10/20 at 6:20 pm to Apollyon
Posted on 4/10/20 at 6:20 pm to Apollyon
quote:
Bat strain that then underwent major mutatation to completely change host vector to pangolin and then completely change host vector again to human with separate major mutation. And then develop and maintain a new ACE receptor binding for human to human transmission, that's a shite load of mutation....which....Um...is... not the occam's razor hypothesis for this thing's origin.
Half of everything you just said is made up supposition by you.
BTW:
A single amino acid change is all that is minimally required to convert a SARS LIKE coronavirus in bats to something compatible in humans, or alternatively a coinfection with an intermediate organism, no mutation required.
ETA: and not that this is a serious forum, be aware ACE receptors and ACE2 (which coronaviruses use) are not the same.
This post was edited on 4/10/20 at 6:24 pm
Posted on 4/10/20 at 6:41 pm to Volvagia
No dude the fact that china studies a virus tree that they naturally get hit by novel strains of has to be proof of a new bio weapon used that escaped the highest level bio safety facility that exists.
Much more likely than another strain evolving from that viral lineage that has a few other recent examples of naturally evolving novel strains in that region.
Much more likely than another strain evolving from that viral lineage that has a few other recent examples of naturally evolving novel strains in that region.
Posted on 4/10/20 at 7:25 pm to Volvagia
(no message)
This post was edited on 6/9/20 at 12:59 pm
Posted on 4/10/20 at 7:27 pm to Volvagia
quote:
is made up supposition by you.
Shockingly: so is the bat-> pangolin -> human hypothesis.
Where's patient zero, arse?
Posted on 4/10/20 at 7:40 pm to Apollyon
quote:
Lol, teach me about ACE1 and 2.
MD here.
I have forgotten more about angiotensin than you ever knew, guaranteed.
Im sorry, what exactly are you trying to establish here?
That you have the technical knowledge but merely choose to speak as if you skim FB posts for your knowledge on this issue?
And you felt so strongly about this choice that you take it as a personal attack that someone else used correct nomenclature?
Anyway, nice sidestep of trying to appear knowledgeable while completely ignoring the 13 years old peer reviewed primary literature that destroyed your argument.
Because establishing that you are an MD on the internet is so much more important than that...
Best save the worthwhile discussion as an afterthought. Pissing contest comes first.
This post was edited on 4/10/20 at 7:47 pm
Posted on 4/10/20 at 7:45 pm to Volvagia
I'm sorry, I missed where you established patient zero or any direct evidence of the claims that this is definitively bat->pangolin->human random.
Also, the claim of wet market origin.
Proof?
You are full of shite.
Also, the claim of wet market origin.
Proof?
You are full of shite.
Posted on 4/10/20 at 7:55 pm to Apollyon
quote:
I'm sorry, I missed where you established patient zero or any direct evidence of the claims that this is definitively bat->pangolin->human random.
You were the one speaking definitively hotshot, not I. Its not for the world to prove your assertions. I only pointed out the one place where you got entirely too casual in your definitive statements, and have been empirically disproven with past research.
It wouldn't take a "lot of mutations" to garner this result. Period.
Wait....is your position that you can say whatever you want and if it can't be proven false that it at least has a patina of legitimacy? Somehow I'm "full of shite" if I don't mean more time validating your claims than you do? Yeah, definitely FB based discussion mindset. G'day. You might want to get some therapy on that thin skin though.
This post was edited on 4/10/20 at 7:57 pm
Posted on 4/10/20 at 8:01 pm to Volvagia
Perhaps I should first teach you about ssRNA viral replication for encapsulated virion particles: hint-- mutations are COMMON (error prone replication utilizing host machinery)... significant structure/function mutations are NOT PENETRANT, a significant mutation allowing brand new species vector interaction is FAR LESS COMMON. Doing that again is LESS COMMON STILL. And finally achieving "lock-and-key" style receptor binding with cell surface receptors of a 3rd species, attaining person to person transmission, and having an incubation period of 5 days while actively shedding for optimized transmission....
In other words: you don't fricking understand antigenic DRIFT and how it differs from antigenic SHIFT. So maybe quit while you're ahead.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. God doesn't make Lamborghinis overnight. Engineering does. Many aspects of this virus are HIGHLY COINCIDENTAL if they aren't fricking engineered.
But you don't understand a word I just said.
In other words: you don't fricking understand antigenic DRIFT and how it differs from antigenic SHIFT. So maybe quit while you're ahead.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. God doesn't make Lamborghinis overnight. Engineering does. Many aspects of this virus are HIGHLY COINCIDENTAL if they aren't fricking engineered.
But you don't understand a word I just said.
This post was edited on 4/10/20 at 8:05 pm
Posted on 4/10/20 at 8:23 pm to Apollyon
quote:
Perhaps I should first teach you about ssRNA viral replication for encapsulated virion particles: hint-- mutations are COMMON (error prone replication utilizing host machinery)... significant structure/function mutations are NOT PENETRANT, a significant mutation allowing brand new species vector interaction is FAR LESS COMMON. Doing that again is LESS COMMON STILL.
All of the caps lock and snide in the world doesn't change the fact that it has been experimentally proven to be possible absent multiple changes. Or that the coding region associated with the active site of the S protein has shown to be commonly affected by coinfection overlap.
All it took to convert a SL-coronavirus from bat to both human and intermediate species was a single alternation in a single codon: from UAU to CAU. Absent that change, it is only about a 60 bp region that is relevant for inter species binding and this easily interchanged.
Which, as you so astutely pointed out, is really easy to pull off.
But word of advice? Before you try to slap your dick on the table to show off your technical prowess, you might want to get your sophomore level cell biology correct:
quote:
Perhaps I should first teach you about ssRNA viral replication for encapsulated virion particles: hint-- mutations are COMMON (error prone replication utilizing host machinery)...
The primary source of the viral replication error for ssRNA is the virally encoded and provided reverse transcriptase, not the host machinery. Without the proofreading ability our transcription enzymes typically have, and no complementary strand, it is this step converting the RNA to DNA that the mutations mostly occur, not the subsequent steps of viral amplification inside the host cell.
Tootles.
But you are right....not a word was understood.
Posted on 4/10/20 at 9:34 pm to Volvagia
quote:
The primary source of the viral replication error for ssRNA is the virally encoded and provided reverse transcriptase, not the host machinery. Without the proofreading ability our transcription enzymes typically have, and no complementary strand, it is this step converting the RNA to DNA that the mutations mostly occur, not the subsequent steps of viral amplification inside the host cell.
Reading comprehension: the error prone mechanism is that encoded by the virus. I already said that. It simply hijacks the host organelles.
Christ you are stupid.
Posted on 4/10/20 at 9:37 pm to Volvagia
First read
Then read
Since you can't follow me, I broke a single sentence of my post in half for you to read slowly.
Maybe I should go further back in my lesson. It took you almost 2 hours to google what you did, imagine how long it will take me to teach you the fricking ABC's too...
quote:
error prone replication
Then read
quote:
utilizing host machinery
Since you can't follow me, I broke a single sentence of my post in half for you to read slowly.
Maybe I should go further back in my lesson. It took you almost 2 hours to google what you did, imagine how long it will take me to teach you the fricking ABC's too...
This post was edited on 4/10/20 at 9:39 pm
Posted on 4/10/20 at 10:10 pm to Apollyon
quote:
It took you almost 2 hours to google what you did,
Given all of my posts to you up till now were within 30 minutes of your post, and some within 10 min but multiple of yours were over an hour to mine, I’m going to assume that was a Freudian slip because there is no interpretation of that based on reality.
Especially as you think viral enzymes count as “host cell machinery” in a virology parlance. That screams of someone who covered it years ago and had to run to google to double check and make sure you weren’t misremembering and jumped to post before fully refreshing yourself on the subject.
It’s why you are trying to force the esoteric words even when not needed for your point...because of the conversation turns to something constructive requiring comfortable understanding you aren’t prepared to advance any discussion. Trouble is I’ve read the same playbook. Esoteric biochem/molecular biology vocab doesn’t phase me.
Hell, I’m not surprised you didn’t start talking about positive sense and negative sense viral encoding just to vomit that out too.
Because you sure as hell aren’t going to talk about experiments supporting a lone point mutation allowing infectivity between humans and amd intermediate when the the issue is bat SARS-Like coronavirus.
This post was edited on 4/10/20 at 10:16 pm
Posted on 4/11/20 at 2:03 am to BoardReader
quote:
The problem with bioweapons is control; if you have a super effective one, you aren't likely to be able to protect yourself from the blowback, so the threshold for use is higher.
Bioterrorism should really be the greater concern than a coordinated attack by another nation. The capabilities that lunatics with a good understanding of genetics have nowadays should scare the shite out of people.
There was a really good TED Talk on this, wish I could remember the guy’s name. But he framed it very well:
Think about a Venn diagram. In one circle, you have people who want to destroy civilization. In the other circle, you have people who can destroy civilization. For most of history, there has been little to no overlap between these groups. However, advances in gene editing technology are starting to make the “people who can destroy civilization” circle grow. How long until they overlap?
Posted on 4/11/20 at 2:12 am to Soup Sammich
Has biological weapons become a bigger threat than nukes?
OR
Have biological weapons become a bigger threat than nukes?
OR
Have biological weapons become a bigger threat than nukes?
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