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Posted on 4/10/24 at 10:00 am to Korkstand
quote:
What, exactly, is your question?
(pretends not to see the question)
Posted on 4/10/24 at 10:04 am to Corinthians420
"A" for effort.
Posted on 4/10/24 at 10:08 am to Liberator
quote:Yep, with each and every generation.
According to your theory, are ape-like" creatures constantly evolving"?
quote:Evolution has no endgame.
Moreover, in staying with you on and presuming this "evolution of ape --> man" will continue forth, is the End Game for Evolutionary Man some kind of "Perfection"? "Godhood perhaps"?
quote:We can't predict tomorrow, much less millions of years from now.
Given the steady evolution from pre-Chimp (and its pre-Ape leap species), would Humans be expected to eventually grow enhanced, bigger craniums and brains? Enhanced / extra ears and noses?
quote:Any adaptation to breathing underwater or flying seems highly unlikely for any descendent of humans at this point. New digits or appendages seem more possible, though such mutations seem more likely to be selected out of rather than into future generations.
What of environmental factors? Gills? Feathers? Extra digits and appendages?
Posted on 4/10/24 at 10:08 am to Liberator
Okay I honestly can’t tell if people are trolling anymore. It’s reached peak trollception. I thought liberator had caught like 10 people in a row and now I’m starting to think he legit believes this stuff.
Posted on 4/10/24 at 10:11 am to Korkstand
quote:
Evolution has no endgame.
I know Liberator is just trolling, but this to me is always the fascinating part in these discussions.
The ID folks always equate Evolution with ID, they simply can't wrap their brains around there being "no plan".
Posted on 4/10/24 at 10:13 am to olddawg26
quote:If Liberator is a troll then he's extremely dedicated to his craft. I think it's more likely that he's just really stupid. I don't know which is sadder.
Okay I honestly can’t tell if people are trolling anymore. It’s reached peak trollception. I thought liberator had caught like 10 people in a row and now I’m starting to think he legit believes this stuff.
Posted on 4/10/24 at 10:16 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
I know Liberator is just trolling, but this to me is always the fascinating part in these discussions.
The ID folks always equate Evolution with ID, they simply can't wrap their brains around there being "no plan".
Agreed.
Posted on 4/10/24 at 10:17 am to Fun Bunch
quote:Yeah. I get it, having a plan or guiding force leading us to some ideal is desirable. It makes us feel good and in control, and it's the basis of most religions I think.
The ID folks always equate Evolution with ID, they simply can't wrap their brains around there being "no plan".
Now that I've used the R-word I'll brace for the inevitable comparisons of evolution with religion.
Posted on 4/10/24 at 10:18 am to Korkstand
Honestly I can accept someone who only googles “why evolution is false” to be like that. No understanding of the subject but a dunning Krueger sense of a couple of supposed gotcha questions. Someone who dedicates their day to pretending to be stupid is way sadder to me. That being said I honestly have no clue what he is.
Posted on 4/10/24 at 10:59 am to Korkstand
I don't obviously agree with any of your assessment or their possibilities...
That said, I sincerely appreciate your effort and thoughtful response to the specific scenarios from your side's perspective.
You indeed answered the bell.
If Evos presume some kind of Intelligence has designed the earth's realm / "terrarium" and its life-force and life-cycle intricacies -- and nothing much is "random" (maybe I'm assuming too much?), is an "End Game" part of your belief system?
What of the metaphysical? Does a Spirit World fit in? Do you believe in a Karma or Reincarnation system? OR, a Final Death?
Who or what force is controlling/facilitating "Good" or "evil"? Benevolent? Malevolent? I don't know how you'd reconcile its creation or determination by a "Universal Force" if it's not "God" or "The Creator".
Finally, what of each individual's unique Human "spirit" that mankind has been imbued with? (Emotional/mental characteristics like "Love and Hate", "Morality & Ethics", "Loyalty & Hope"?) Are these non-physical attributes "evolving" at the same rate and along with the physical?
That said, I sincerely appreciate your effort and thoughtful response to the specific scenarios from your side's perspective.
You indeed answered the bell.
If Evos presume some kind of Intelligence has designed the earth's realm / "terrarium" and its life-force and life-cycle intricacies -- and nothing much is "random" (maybe I'm assuming too much?), is an "End Game" part of your belief system?
What of the metaphysical? Does a Spirit World fit in? Do you believe in a Karma or Reincarnation system? OR, a Final Death?
Who or what force is controlling/facilitating "Good" or "evil"? Benevolent? Malevolent? I don't know how you'd reconcile its creation or determination by a "Universal Force" if it's not "God" or "The Creator".
Finally, what of each individual's unique Human "spirit" that mankind has been imbued with? (Emotional/mental characteristics like "Love and Hate", "Morality & Ethics", "Loyalty & Hope"?) Are these non-physical attributes "evolving" at the same rate and along with the physical?
Posted on 4/10/24 at 11:01 am to Liberator
quote:
If Evos presume some kind of Intelligence has designed the earth's realm / "terrarium" and its life-force and life-cycle intricacies -- and nothing much is "random" (maybe I'm assuming too much?), is an "End Game" part of your belief system?
Why would you think they presume any of this?
quote:
What of the metaphysical? Does a Spirit World fit in? Do you believe in a Karma or Reincarnation system? OR, a Final Death?
Who or what force is controlling/facilitating "Good" or "evil"? Benevolent? Malevolent? I don't know how you'd reconcile its creation or determination by a "Universal Force" if it's not "God" or "The Creator".
Finally, what of each individual's unique Human "spirit" that mankind has been imbued with? (Emotional/mental characteristics like "Love and Hate", "Morality & Ethics", "Loyalty & Hope"?) Are these non-physical attributes "evolving" at the same rate and along with the physical?
None of this has anything remotely to do with evolution.
Things mutate, and then pass off those mutations to offspring. That is all it is.
Posted on 4/10/24 at 11:31 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
I know Liberator is just trolling, but this to me is always the fascinating part in these discussions.
I find your "he trolling" theory curious.
Its irrational to me, barely believable. But I suppose you could actually be serious. If so here is my theory (which also applies to many here):
Most people have set their personal paradigm (institutional dogma) in a default position. Your current "reality" would not only have to be up-ended on its head by the introduction of alt-Default theories, but one needs to accommodate the additional room for alternative systems and concepts (which will definitely contradict the current ones.) As an intellectual defense mechanism, cognitive dissonance is used as "shielding" the old system -- along with hostility and belief in "it's a troll", "he's nut" becomes a natural but understandable reaction.
New knowledge may be easy enough to adjust to in smaller doses; but entirely whole new systems in many cases (that run counter to the original default position we've ALL learned early on) creates "circuit breaks". (And by the way, nobody -- not even me --ever really wants or wanted to believe we've been lied to by our institutions our whole life.)
Its been said, "one must first un-learn what we've learned" in order to accept new concepts and System Paradigms / Realities. (Ex: "Heliocentricism". Age of structures. Past tech. etc.)
Posted on 4/10/24 at 11:37 am to Liberator
quote:"Evos" don't presume this, at all.
If Evos presume some kind of Intelligence has designed the earth's realm / "terrarium" and its life-force and life-cycle intricacies
quote:Almost everything is random or has a random component.
and nothing much is "random"
quote:I don't have much in the way of a "belief system".
is an "End Game" part of your belief system?
quote:I honestly don't know. If we can't study it then it doesn't really fit the conversation.
What of the metaphysical? Does a Spirit World fit in?
quote:No.
Do you believe in a Karma or Reincarnation system?
quote:I don't know.
OR, a Final Death?
quote:As far as the universe is concerned, there are no concepts of "good" and "evil".
Who or what force is controlling/facilitating "Good" or "evil"?
quote:We collectively determine/decide what is "good" and "evil", and we don't always agree. Also many of the acts that humans almost universally consider to be "evil" are just a part of everyday life for other animals.
I don't know how you'd reconcile its creation or determination by a "Universal Force" if it's not "God" or "The Creator".
quote:As far as the "human spirit" (as opposed to some metaphysical spirit), it seems clear that such qualities are fabrications of the human mind. We can see some of these traits in other animals as well. Dogs, for example, seem to be extremely loyal, full of hope, love, and sometimes hate. Are dogs imbued with their own dog spirit, or are these just evolved behaviors that we are projecting our own definitions onto? This question should make you rethink your own belief system, right? Are humans unique in creation having a spirit, or do dogs have one as well? This calls our uniqueness into question. Or, if these qualities in dogs are just behaviors, aren't these same qualities in us just behaviors as well rather than some divinely-imbued spirit?
Finally, what of each individual's unique Human "spirit" that mankind has been imbued with? (Emotional/mental characteristics like "Love and Hate", "Morality & Ethics", "Loyalty & Hope"?) Are these non-physical attributes "evolving" at the same rate and along with the physical?
Posted on 4/10/24 at 12:13 pm to northshorebamaman
quote:
I'm not an atheist
Theistic evolutionist? If so, you’re in some pretty good company (Francis Collins, N.T. Wright, Billy Graham, C.S. Lewis, Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis- to name a few). While I personally don’t hold this view, I don’t believe it (alone) to be a sufficient reason to break fellowship with those who do.
quote:
I take issue with your shoehorning of "unguided"
Is this not one of the major underpinnings of Darwinian theory? It most certainly is the main point of contention between proponents of Intelligent Design and Darwinian theory.
quote:
Considering the timescale is in the billions of years, yes, I find that completely plausible.
IF evolution is a guided process, directed by a Supreme Intelligence- then I agree that this is logically feasible. Conversely, I don’t see anything but mathematical improbability in regards to an unguided process of random mutations taking a single cell and turning it into millions upon millions of vastly different and extremely complex forms of life- even given 3.5 billion years, as natural selection can only preserve what random mutations first generate.
Consider Stephen Meyer’s explanation.
Here’s an illustration that may help make the problem clear. Imagine that we encounter a committed bike thief who is willing to search the “sequence space” of possible bike combinations at a rate of about one new combination per two seconds. If our hypothetical bike thief had three hours and took no breaks he could generate more than half (about 5,400) of the 10,000 total combinations of a four-dial lock. In that case, the probability that he will stumble upon the right combination exceeds the probability that he will fail. More likely than not, he will open the lock by chance.
But now consider another case. If that thief with the same limited three hour time period available to him confronted a lock with ten dials and ten digits per dial (a lock with ten billion possible combinations) he would now have time only to explore a small fraction of the possible combinations—5,400 of ten billion—far fewer than half. In this case, it would be much more likely than not that he would fail to open the lock by chance.
These examples suggest that the ultimate probability of the success of a random search—and the plausibility of any hypothesis that affirms the success of such a search—depends upon both the size of the space that needs to be searched and the number of opportunities available to search it. In Darwin’s Doubt, I show that the number of possible DNA and amino acid sequences that need to be searched by the evolutionary process dwarfs the time available for such a search—even taking into account evolutionary deep time. Molecular biologists have long understood that the size of the “sequence space” of possible nucleotide bases and amino acids (the number of possible combinations) is extremely large. Moreover, recent experiments in molecular biology and protein science have established that functional genes and proteins are extremely rare within these huge combinatorial spaces of possible arrangements. There are vastly more ways of arranging nucleotide bases that result in non-functional sequences of DNA, and vastly more ways of arranging amino acids that result in non-functional amino-acid chains, than there are corresponding functional genes or proteins. One recent experimentally derived estimate places that ratio—the size of the haystack in relation to the needle—at 10 to the 77 power of non-functional sequences for every functional gene or protein. (There are only something like 10 to the 65 power atoms in our galaxy.)
Posted on 4/10/24 at 12:15 pm to Corinthians420
quote:
Larger craniums would not be selected for unless women/men found them attractive
Nature selects traits, not individuals.
Posted on 4/10/24 at 12:32 pm to Prodigal Son
It's not the same process though. Once you find a combination that works, other working combinations will share many of the same numbers. For instance, humans and bacteria share some genes. Once nature finds this "working" combination, it doesn't have to search far to find other working conbinations.
Also, the search process is happening in parallel. Nature is checking many combinations at the same time.
Also, the search process is happening in parallel. Nature is checking many combinations at the same time.
Posted on 4/10/24 at 12:40 pm to Liberator
Considering the double slit experiment and my personal spiritual beliefs, I don't think the universe carries on after humans. If there is no one here to observe (or enjoy) the matter of this universe, matter will cease to exist.
This one is fun because nobody will be here to tell me I'm wrong.
This one is fun because nobody will be here to tell me I'm wrong.
Posted on 4/10/24 at 12:42 pm to GRTiger
quote:
Considering the double slit experiment and my personal spiritual beliefs, I don't think the universe carries on after humans. If there is no one here to observe (or enjoy) the matter of this universe, matter will cease to exist.
This one is fun because nobody will be here to tell me I'm wrong
You might as well just pretend the universe ends after you die at that point. It's the same thing.
There have been entire colonies of people wiped out and the universe didn't end.
Im not sure what the difference would be between one human being alive and 0 humans alive to a planet a million lightyears away.
This post was edited on 4/10/24 at 12:44 pm
Posted on 4/10/24 at 12:48 pm to Corinthians420
quote:
You might as well just pretend the universe ends after you die at that point. It's the same thing.
No, it isn't.
Eta
quote:
Im not sure what the difference would be between one human being alive and 0 humans alive to a planet a million lightyears away.
What matters to a planet 1 million light years way right now?
This post was edited on 4/10/24 at 12:51 pm
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