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re: Ford, GM, Mercedes come clean on EV demand weakness
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:07 am to GusMcRae
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:07 am to GusMcRae
quote:
Is there an EV that I can use to pull a 23’ center console, drive to Colorado or west Texas without stopping while hauling a bunch of crap?
Not sure where you live, but my bladder couldn’t handle driving to west Texas without stopping. EV’s need to be affordable and handle 400 miles of range reliability while being able to recharge quickly at almost any locale. Basically it needs to be comparable or superior to a gasoline or Diesel engine in operation.
EV’s are getting heavy subsidies. If you have a W2 income, you can easily take advantage of very generous tax credits to buy one. But that still isn’t enough for most buyers, so the EPA’s Corporate Average Fuel Economy mandates are hiked behind a reasonable level. The goal of this isn’t to save energy, but to make internal combustion vehicles more expensive and more unreliable to help improve the appeal of EV models.
We just aren’t ready yet. But it’s being shoved down our throats anyways. That’s why there is a lot of resentment.
The reality is that the Tesla Model Y is a perfectly good vehicle for most people. It’s now outselling the Camry in many markets. But not everyone wants a car that looks like that. So you get vehicles like the Blazer EV and Ford Mach E that are perfectly good vehicles if not for their infuriating names being lifted from legendary ICE vehicles that people loved.
And not everyone has a predictable commute. Some people drive long distances through rural areas. Some people tow. Some people need off road capability. There needs to be more options in both the automotive landscape (which is what the automakers are trying) AND more rapid charging infrastructure. I seriously think the charging infrastructure is a bigger hold up at this point.
In 20 years, there will be a lot of nostalgia for cars like the Wrangler, Mustang, Camaro, 4Runner, Cadillac V series, and the performance Italian cars. You may have the same for smaller RVs, Tractors, and ATVs. Those will all be long gone and replaced with electric vehicles. You may even see fuel stations go the way of blockbuster.
This post was edited on 11/1/23 at 9:09 am
1
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:08 am to member12
quote:Mary Barra is not the right man for the job.
GM on Tuesday withdrew its 2023 profit outlook, and CEO Mary Barra said the automaker will slow the launch of several planned EV models to cut costs.
Mark my words.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:14 am to holmesbr
quote:Great point.
When you have an EV car maker summit and leave the most successful EV maker off the list shows it's a bigger agenda and not about EV cars.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:14 am to shel311
quote:
Consumers definitely want EVs. Like you said, EV sales are growing every year.
There's just zero point in buying some new EV from a legacy automaker when you can get an EV that is better in just about every way from an established EV company.
Where is the Cybertruck BTW?
I got my deposit back from Tesla the first time they delayed the Cybertruck and a bought a brand new Toyota truck. I needed a new vehicle. My Toyota truck now has 30,000 miles on it.
Meanwhile GM and Ford unveiled new EV pickups and have put them into production and are working on the second generation of those models. Tesla still hasn’t put the Cybertruck into consumers hands yet despite unveiling it before the concept versions of the Hummer EV or F-150 Lightning were shown.
Tesla should be more nimble than they are. Is Musk spending too much time at Twitter or SpaceX? What’s the deal with the multi year Cybertruck delays?
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:15 am to shel311
quote:
Consumers definitely want EVs. Like you said, EV sales are growing every year.
There's just zero point in buying some new EV from a legacy automaker when you can get an EV that is better in just about every way from an established EV company.
EV's currently are commuter vehicles, and if that is the lane these car manufacturers are in, that is fine. Those that need bigger vehicles or truck to haul things are never going to uptake EV's.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:15 am to WhiskeyThrottle
quote:
It takes less than five minutes to fuel up my truck and go for close to 500 miles before I will need to stop again. Until a EV can do that, I’m not interested.
quote:
This is essentially the deal breaker for me. There are a line of reasons I don't want an EV, but this is the top of that list. There are so many down sides and inconveniences with EV's that it flat will never work.
Exactly. And not only does it take five minutes to fuel up my truck then not have to worry about it again for almost 500 miles, when I do need to stop for fuel again, I don’t have to worry about finding somewhere to fuel up. There is at least one gas station located right off the vast majority of interstate exist. The same is true when traveling on secondary roads. Unless you’re crossing some remote stretch of highway in the deserts of Nevada or some other similar remote area, you really don’t have to worry about where you’ll find fuel on virtually any road trip.
But with EVs, on top of having half the range and taking ten times as long to refill, you also have to worry about even finding somewhere to charge them.
Maybe I’m just a simple county boy from rural north Alabama, but I’m failing to see anything remotely enticing or beneficial to me that would lead me to buy and EV.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:16 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
But with EVs, on top of having half the range and taking ten times as long to refill, you also have to worry about even finding somewhere to charge them.
That’s a big problem. It just isn’t being addressed quickly enough.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:17 am to dewster
quote:
Tesla should be more nimble than they are.
So they should just rush pieces of shite to market like Ford, GM, and everyone else has done? There's a reason Tesla has the best EV tech on the market and part of it is they aren't afraid to push a timeline to get it right.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:19 am to The Mick
quote:
Why do EV's have a vid screen across entire dashboard and non-EV's don't? Some people like them, some think they're ugly.
Actually - alot of ICE cars are starting to have at least dual digital displays (one for standard instrumentation and the other for ac/nav/appleplay etc) if not one continuous across the dash.
Not a fan of them...
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:21 am to billjamin
quote:
So they should just rush pieces of shite to market like Ford, GM, and everyone else has done? There's a reason Tesla has the best EV tech on the market and part of it is they aren't afraid to push a timeline to get it right.
Exactly. I trust Tesla to not rush it out since they are the market leader in EVs and they know what wouldn’t work. At the price tag these EV trucks are, it has to be perfect at launch
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:22 am to WhiskeyThrottle
quote:If you do a lot of road trips, this definitely makes sense.
This is essentially the deal breaker for me. There are a line of reasons I don't want an EV, but this is the top of that list. There are so many down sides and inconveniences with EV's that it flat will never work.
If not, or if you have a 2 vehicle family where 1 is your travel vehicle, then that really never comes into play.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:22 am to Corinthians420
quote:
Well that's all I needed to see. Pack it up boys OP has solved the EV crisis and they won't make anymore
again with the holier than thou attitude
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:24 am to shel311
quote:
quote:
I dunno. It's too easy of an excuse to say ...well consumers just don't want EVs.
Year over year EV sales continue to grow.
Consumers definitely want EVs. Like you said, EV sales are growing every year.
There's just zero point in buying some new EV from a legacy automaker when you can get an EV that is better in just about every way from an established EV company.
Some points:
1. Yes, EV sales are increasing, but they are still on 7.9% of the US market, which makes it easy to set YoY records for sales.
2. The problem is that sales are NOT increasing fast enough to support the collective investment the industry has committed to. Making cars is not like turning the water on and off. If you want to make x model mix in five years, you have to start investments for that NOW. This is true for every automaker on the planet.
3. EV sales increases from legacy automakers are far outpacing Tesla's sales increases, despite Tesla's ~25% YoY price cut. Your last sentence doesn't hold water. Tesla, for the first time ever, will fall under 50% of the EV market this year more than likely.
4. The mish mash of state and federal mandates simply cannot be met with current tech and resources within the timeframes mandated. Lawmakers are, as usual, out of touch. Copper alone will see a near-50% deficit in ore mined vs copper required by the early 2030's, just a little more than 6 years away.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:24 am to dewster
quote:I think deliveries start the last day of this month, Novem ber. THere's a delivery event I believe on the last day of November, so it's finally starting.
Where is the Cybertruck BTW?
They confirmed they're starting with the dual and try motor. I think it's a safe assumption that the $40k single motor version is just never going to be made.
quote:Elon was doing much better with "Elon time" for a while. The Model Y was on point with that, but they've gone back to Elon Time with the Cybertruck being behind schedule.
Tesla should be more nimble than they are. Is Musk spending too much time at Twitter or SpaceX? What’s the deal with the multi year Cybertruck delays?
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:26 am to billjamin
quote:
So they should just rush pieces of shite to market like Ford, GM, and everyone else has done? There's a reason Tesla has the best EV tech on the market and part of it is they aren't afraid to push a timeline to get it right.
They also are making mostly cars. Ford and GM trying to do trucks first is stupid.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:27 am to dewster
quote:The number of Tesla superchargers are growing pretty rapidly. And it's likely to really skyrocket going forward since so many other automakers are cutting deals and paying Tesla to use their network. So kinda bad that there could be more usage, but good in that Tesla will take those likely billions and begin to really really rapidly put up more chargers.
That’s a big problem. It just isn’t being addressed quickly enough.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:27 am to Eighteen
quote:
So they should just rush pieces of shite to market like Ford, GM, and everyone else has done? There's a reason Tesla has the best EV tech on the market and part of it is they aren't afraid to push a timeline to get it right.
Exactly. I trust Tesla to not rush it out since they are the market leader in EVs and they know what wouldn’t work. At the price tag these EV trucks are, it has to be perfect at launch
Doesn't take a black belt in Google-Fu to show that Tesla put plenty of hardware and SW on the market before it was fully baked. Their build quality on things like panel fit, squeak & rattle, and other details are still sub-par by industry standards.
Tesla has worked some miracles, and is a very good competitor, but don't put them on a pedestal they don't deserve.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:31 am to member12
As long as gas prices are reasonable, they'll be little demand for EVs. I wouldn't be surprised in Joes second term that his folks try to raise fuel prices to increase EV sales.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:32 am to TigerHornII
quote:Why does this prove my last sentence doesn't hold water? In fact, you're contradicting yourself by stating this with your point #1 of your post. Point #1 is exactly why you're incorrect here
3. EV sales increases from legacy automakers are far outpacing Tesla's sales increases, despite Tesla's ~25% YoY price cut. Your last sentence doesn't hold water. Tesla, for the first time ever, will fall under 50% of the EV market this year more than likely.
As the EV market grows, Tesla will have less and less market share, this will be portrayed as a negative but it's not. The key point there is the EV market growing. Tesla will lose market share but will still benefit as a result of the growth in the market itself.
Posted on 11/1/23 at 9:33 am to TigerHornII
quote:Pretending Tesla has been anything other than a massive success is pretty odd.
Tesla has worked some miracles, and is a very good competitor, but don't put them on a pedestal they don't deserve.
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