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re: dude at work keeps sayin white people changed history of pharaohs! need help

Posted on 2/16/15 at 8:31 am to
Posted by Kafka
I am the moral conscience of TD
Member since Jul 2007
143010 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 8:31 am to
LINK

quote:

Not Out of Africa
Was Greek Culture Stolen from Africa?
Modern Myth vs. Ancient History

by Mary Lefkowitz

Excerpted from her book:
Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History

Why I wrote the book In the fall of 1991 I was asked to write a review-article for The New Republic about Martin Bernal's Black Athena and its relation to the Afrocentrist movement. The assignment literally changed my life. Once I began to work on the article I realized that here was a subject that needed all the attention, and more, that I could give to it. Although I had been completely unaware of it, there was in existence a whole literature that denied that the ancient Greeks were the inventors of democracy, philosophy, and science. There were books in circulation that claimed that Socrates and Cleopatra were of African descent, and that Greek philosophy had actually been stolen from Egypt. Not only were these books being read and widely distributed; some of these ideas were being taught in schools and even in universities.

Ordinarily, if someone has a theory which involves a radical departure from what the experts have professed, he is expected to defend his position by providing evidence in its support. But no one seemed to think it was appropriate to ask for evidence from the instructors who claimed that the Greeks stole their philosophy from Egypt.

Normally, if one has a question about a text that another instructor is using, one simply asks why he or she is using that book. But since this conventional line of inquiry was closed to me, I had to wait till I could raise my questions in a more public context. That opportunity came in February 1993, when Dr. Yosef A. A. ben-Jochannan was invited to give Wellesley's Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial lecture. Posters described Dr. ben-Jochannan as a "distinguished Egyptologist," and indeed that is how he was introduced by the then President of Wellesley College. But I knew from my research in Afrocentric literature that he was not what scholars would ordinarily describe as an Egyptologist, that is a scholar of Egyptian language and civilization. Rather, he was an extreme Afrocentrist, author of many books describing how Greek civilization was stolen from Africa, how Aristotle robbed the library of Alexandria, and how the true Jews are Africans like himself.

After Dr. ben-Jochannan made these same assertions once again in his lecture, I asked him during the question period why he said that Aristotle had come to Egypt with Alexander, and had stolen his philosophy from the Library at Alexandria, when that Library had only been built after his death. Dr. ben-Jochannan was unable to answer the question, and said that he resented the tone of the inquiry. Several students came up to me after the lecture and accused me of racism, suggesting that I had been brainwashed by white historians. But others stayed to hear me out, and I assured Dr. ben-Jochannan that I simply wanted to know what his evidence was: so far as I knew, and I had studied the subject, Aristotle never went to Egypt, and while the date of the Library of Alexandria is not known precisely, it was certainly only built some years after the city was founded, which was after both Aristotle's and Alexander's deaths. A lecture at which serious questions could not be asked, and in fact were greeted with hostility -- the occasion seemed more like a political rally than an academic event. As if that were not disturbing enough in itself, there was also the strange silence on the part of many of my faculty colleagues. Several of these were well aware that what Dr. ben-Jochannan was saying was factually wrong. One of them said later that she found the lecture so "hopeless" that she decided to say nothing. Were they afraid of being called racists? If so, their behavior was understandable, but not entirely responsible. Didn't we as educators owe it to our students, all our students, to see that they got the best education they could possibly get? And that clearly was what they were not getting in a lecture where they were being told myths disguised as history, and where discussion and analysis had apparently been forbidden.

Good as the myths they were hearing may have made these students feel, so long as they never left the Afrocentric environment in which they were being nurtured and sheltered, they were being systematically deprived of the most important features of a university education. They were not learning how to question themselves and others, they were not learning to distinguish facts from fiction, nor in fact were they learning how to think for themselves. Their instructors had forgotten, while the rest of us sat by and did nothing about it, that students do not come to universities to be indoctrinated --at least in a free society.
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
16932 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 8:47 am to
quote:

Egyptians of that time obviously in looks were closest to looking like modern day U.S. African Americans, it is Africa for god sakes


You think those 3 pieces of art work support the claim that ancient Egyptians were black?

It's common knowledge that Nubians were present in Egypt and are depicted in Egyptian art. They are also depicted outwardly differently than the other Egyptians.
Posted by SpqrTiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2004
9287 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 8:47 am to
quote:

Punctuation aside, if your coworker is stupid enough to believe this, nothing you can say or do will change his mind.


By saying that "white people" changed the history of the pharaohs, your friend has but in an automatic nullifier to any argument you might present to dispute his. Any source you show him would be the work of "white people" trying to hoodwink us lovers of accurate history. So there's really no point in arguing with him. Let him have his distorted view.

If you're wondering what the actual truth is... Egypt had both pharaohs whose skin color could be classified as "black" and those who could be classified as "white." We are talking about a VERY long period of history here, and several dynasties rose and fell over those thousands of years. The bottom line here is that no race can claim uninterrupted occupation of the pharaoh's seat, and beyond that there's no way to know for sure... BECAUSE...

Isn't it interesting that ancient people were less obsessed with race in their histories than modern people are? Where is it said in ancient text, (as a hypothetical), "King Who's It the Great, the first black Pharaoh of Egypt, yadda yadda yadda..."?

Compare that to how many times you've heard President Obama referred to as the first black president of the United States. Or how many times you've had someone try to convince you that Cleopatra was either black or white?

If it didn't matter to the ancient Egyptians, why does it matter to us today?

Posted by LucasP
Member since Apr 2012
21618 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 8:51 am to
As a hard-core racist myself, I honestly hope you're not the same race as me. Your shitty grammar and general rambling are really not helping our case for the "master race".
This post was edited on 2/16/15 at 8:52 am
Posted by LSU_Saints_Hornets
Uptown NO,LA
Member since Jan 2013
9739 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 8:58 am to
quote:

dude at work keeps sayin white people changed history of pharaohs


IDK if this is 100% true, but they did strip the Africans they brought to America as slaves of their history. Bring on the downvotes!!!!
Posted by Wolfhound45
Hanging with Chicken in Lurkistan
Member since Nov 2009
120000 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 9:00 am to
quote:

Punctuation aside, if your coworker is stupid enough to believe this, nothing you can say or do will change his mind.
Posted by lsu480
Downtown Scottsdale
Member since Oct 2007
92877 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 9:26 am to
There were blacks and browns back then in Egypt. Integrating helped build their country but it eventually led to their downfall like it has in every other empire ever.
Posted by DanW1
Member since Jan 2013
1105 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 9:31 am to
quote:

Ok, this gentleman on my shift keeps trying to tell me the Egyptians were black and that, in fact, the pharohs were also black.

He claims, however, that white people changed the history books due to their racism I suppose. (What a surprise, pulling the race card. I'm like, 'Dude... Come on.')

Anyways, this same gentleman is always spouting this nonsense. I feel it gets in the way of work.

To be honest, I'm not even racist but this talk gets old and the fellow never ceases.

Can any of you give me anything to tell this gentleman? Something to come back with because I can't go back listening to this nonsense anymore. I need to quell this arguement with facts.

What can I tell this guy? I don't know where he comes up with this stuff. Thank you.


Went ahead and tried to translate it.

I suggest the "I'm too good for this bs" approach.

Just say something like, "Just as 'black' is politically incorrect in lieu of 'African American', why should we refer to the Egyptians on the basis of skin color? I prefer African Egyptian."

Then throw in something along the lines of, "Or are you more of a race baiting leech on society?"

Good luck.
Posted by NYNolaguy1
Member since May 2011
20971 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 9:36 am to
Once had an Egyptian professor tell the class how he was African American and how he wanted "to get free stuff too." Don't know if he ever succeeded. Was one of the funniest professors I ever had.
Posted by WalkingTurtles
Alexandria
Member since Jan 2013
5913 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 9:37 am to
Egyptians were an almost olive skin people then combined with intermingling from conquering Nubians as well as Arabs and Israelites trickling down they became a diverse mixture of skin color.

Once Alecander conquered Egypt then his general Ptolemy started his dynasty after Alexander's death. There was a heavy Greek influence on the makeup of the ruling class. Follow that by the Romans and the ruling class became almost exclusively white Meditarrean. Then the Arabs conquered and that's where we are today roundabout way.
Posted by Fat and Happy
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2013
17134 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 9:38 am to
They were black. I don't get why people get so wrapped up on this.
Posted by Peazey
Metry
Member since Apr 2012
25418 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 9:39 am to
Looks like tan skin to me or what is probably similar to modern day arabs.

Posted by Asgard Device
The Daedalus
Member since Apr 2011
11562 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 9:45 am to
The Saharan desert separated Caucasians (Berbers and Arabs) from the sub Saharan Africans (blacks).

The Egyptian empire included these African areas and included them in their society. I think at times their rulers were even descendants of sub Saharan Africa and thus were black.

Over the centuries there has been a lot of interbreeding between the Berbers, Arabs, and Blacks in north Africa so there's plenty of genetic overlap these days. One would think that Egypt natives were mostly "white" 6,000 years ago.

Honestly I would just drop it.
Posted by Arkla Missy
Ark-La-Miss
Member since Jan 2013
10288 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 9:49 am to
quote:

race card ... same dude always spouting this bs ... it (race talk) gets in the way of work ... dude never shuts up ... yall tell me something to tell this dude ...


"HUMAN RESOURCES"
Posted by Peazey
Metry
Member since Apr 2012
25418 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 9:51 am to
quote:

IDK if this is 100% true, but they did strip the Africans they brought to America as slaves of their history.


In a way this definitely happened. However, from what I understand, this entailed not allowing the teaching of African languages and culture and only allowing the teaching of Christianity and such. As far as I know, it didn't entail teaching a fabricated history. It just denied acknowledgement. There's a pretty clear difference between the two.

In large part it was a strategy by the slave owners, but I also wonder how much written history the slaves were supposed to have. I imagine a stripping of culture would probably be a more accurate descriptor of what happened.
Posted by Bmath
LA
Member since Aug 2010
18691 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 9:53 am to
quote:

Also, Google hyrogliphics, they aren't black either.


Some are, and this has contributed to these types of theories. Various arguments state that all of Egypt was once inhabited by black Africans, but over the past 2,000+ years people of Arab decent have taken over.

Nevertheless the historical analysis I believe is that the ancient Egyptia were more similar to Arabs, but that they also received a fair amount of influence from both European and Sub-Sahara Africans.
Posted by LSU_Saints_Hornets
Uptown NO,LA
Member since Jan 2013
9739 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 10:41 am to
quote:

In large part it was a strategy by the slave owners, but I also wonder how much written history the slaves were supposed to have. I imagine a stripping of culture would probably be a more accurate descriptor of what happened.


Posted by Catman88
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Dec 2004
49125 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 10:52 am to
Wait... Do black people understand that European settlers did not take every black person from Africa right? That in fact Europeans were aided by other black people in Africa to take them. Their history is still there. Just because the slaves were taught something else does not mean that the people left behind in Africa did not retain that history.
Posted by Catman88
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Dec 2004
49125 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 10:58 am to
Most misunderstood monument of all time..

It not a hat it was really an afro

Posted by shawnlsu
Member since Nov 2011
23682 posts
Posted on 2/16/15 at 10:59 am to
Just tell him that the black Africans built the pyramids and let him do his own research from there.
This post was edited on 2/16/15 at 11:00 am
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