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Message
re: Do You Have Confidence In A Jury?
Posted on 3/30/19 at 6:08 pm to Obtuse1
Posted on 3/30/19 at 6:08 pm to Obtuse1
quote:
Having tried several hundred cases, both civil and criminal I would say juries get the base question of guilt and responsibility correct about 90% of the time. Keep in mind this is based on seeing the entire trial and knowing all the testimony presented and how it was presented. Where juries get capricious and or out of their depth is monetary rewards and criminal sentences (in jurisdictions/cases where juries decide sentences). In that part of the process, they simply do not have the experience to set reasonable relative values.
Thanks for the insight. It seems like a lot of people have no faith in juries and I guess I understand to some degree. If you are innocent, your future is in the hands of 12 random people, but it seems like the bigger concern should be the lawyers and how they do their job presenting to a jury.
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Posted on 3/30/19 at 6:12 pm to fallguy_1978
quote:
Think about how stupid the average person is and realize that half of them are stupider than that.
Like an accounting professor use to tell us in class "remember, the average person has an 8.5 grade education"..
Posted on 3/30/19 at 6:15 pm to OweO
no - since a significant demographic values tribal loyalty over western concepts like rule of law.
Posted on 3/30/19 at 6:17 pm to OweO
Not really
I was on a DWI/concealing a weapon case.
Defense attorney was allowed to get 2 NRA members on the jury, i'm sure you know what NRA members think about any gun charges, yeah, they don't. So no matter what they were NEVER going to find them guilty.
Then you had people who could not afford to be off work for the trial, so they wanted to let him off immediately, or give him a simple fine since he was an older man.
Then you had Elderly people who were just stupid, one tried to claim, that a bottle beer in middle of console, could stay cold by the AC being blown on it(car windows open). Uh, it was 95 and humid as frick, i think we all know what humidity does to a cold beer, and quickly.
I got so tired of the stupidity, i began berating people for their stupidity, like the AC/beer cold dealio, wanting to let him off easy because he was older, etc.
I went in with an open mind, and felt the guy was guilty on both charges, but the charge of concealing is very vague, if you read it, it said all of gun was concealed, which should be changed.
Guy tried to hide the gun from the cops as he pulled up to the car, with the top of his cooler lid. So yes he tried to conceal it, but by law, it wasn't 100% concealed, thus the charge should be dropped.
You need full time, paid jurors. And they pull from the pool of them. 2 many there do not want to be there or cannot afford to be there.
I was working at chrysler, so they were paying me 100% of the difference of the $20 the court was paying and a 8 hour work day, so i was happy to stay. But many aren't as lucky.
I was on a DWI/concealing a weapon case.
Defense attorney was allowed to get 2 NRA members on the jury, i'm sure you know what NRA members think about any gun charges, yeah, they don't. So no matter what they were NEVER going to find them guilty.
Then you had people who could not afford to be off work for the trial, so they wanted to let him off immediately, or give him a simple fine since he was an older man.
Then you had Elderly people who were just stupid, one tried to claim, that a bottle beer in middle of console, could stay cold by the AC being blown on it(car windows open). Uh, it was 95 and humid as frick, i think we all know what humidity does to a cold beer, and quickly.
I got so tired of the stupidity, i began berating people for their stupidity, like the AC/beer cold dealio, wanting to let him off easy because he was older, etc.
I went in with an open mind, and felt the guy was guilty on both charges, but the charge of concealing is very vague, if you read it, it said all of gun was concealed, which should be changed.
Guy tried to hide the gun from the cops as he pulled up to the car, with the top of his cooler lid. So yes he tried to conceal it, but by law, it wasn't 100% concealed, thus the charge should be dropped.
You need full time, paid jurors. And they pull from the pool of them. 2 many there do not want to be there or cannot afford to be there.
I was working at chrysler, so they were paying me 100% of the difference of the $20 the court was paying and a 8 hour work day, so i was happy to stay. But many aren't as lucky.
This post was edited on 3/30/19 at 6:19 pm
Posted on 3/30/19 at 6:21 pm to OweO
More confidence than I have in a judge, typically.
Posted on 3/30/19 at 6:22 pm to Rock the Casbah
quote:
no - since a significant demographic values tribal loyalty over western concepts like rule of law.
There was a time when, if a black person had an all white jury, if they were innocent.. It really didn't matter. Is that what you are referring to?
Posted on 3/30/19 at 6:29 pm to OweO
12 average Americans aren't intelligent enough to choose my supper, much less my freedom.
Posted on 3/30/19 at 6:33 pm to SeeeeK
quote:
Defense attorney was allowed to get 2 NRA members on the jury, i'm sure you know what NRA members think about any gun charges, yeah, they don't. So no matter what they were NEVER going to find them guilty.
Sounds like the ADA prosecuting the case was an idiot
Posted on 3/30/19 at 6:40 pm to SeeeeK
quote:
Defense attorney was allowed to get 2 NRA members on the jury, i'm sure you know what NRA members think about any gun charges, yeah, they don't.
Lifetime member checking in.
Posted on 3/30/19 at 6:51 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
Sounds like the ADA prosecuting the case was an idiot
He wanted Me on the Jury, because my Father was a police officer. So it was probably a trade, ok, you get the 2 NRA, i get cops kid and ????
Posted on 3/30/19 at 8:14 pm to SeeeeK
quote:
He wanted Me on the Jury, because my Father was a police officer. So it was probably a trade, ok, you get the 2 NRA, i get cops kid and ????
Sure, if juries were actually “picked” in the way laymen think they are. Since you’ve served on a jury, you know that jurors are deselected, not selected. Unless he was out of peremptory challenges, there’s no reason not to strike them, even if he failed to get them for cause.
Posted on 3/30/19 at 9:36 pm to SeeeeK
That is a good point. There are several factors that can play into a jury's decision.
- Like you said, people who are missing work who want to get it over ASAP.
- Older people have a different view of the world than younger people.
- People with different political philosophies see things different.
- There could be something that becomes personal for a jury member.
With that said, I guess it all comes back on the lawyers since it is their job to vet the jurors and while each side wants people who would favor their case, I am sure both sides do not want people they feel are wild cards.
- Like you said, people who are missing work who want to get it over ASAP.
- Older people have a different view of the world than younger people.
- People with different political philosophies see things different.
- There could be something that becomes personal for a jury member.
With that said, I guess it all comes back on the lawyers since it is their job to vet the jurors and while each side wants people who would favor their case, I am sure both sides do not want people they feel are wild cards.
Posted on 3/30/19 at 9:43 pm to OweO
I try civil jury cases often. I think that people are generally reasonable, and that most of the time they do the right thing. People's decisions, however, are certainly colored by their social status and politics. The right thing in New Orleans may not look anything like the right thing in Jefferson.
Posted on 3/30/19 at 9:43 pm to OweO
I don't have 100% confidence in a jury. But then again, I can't think of a better system honestly. So i guess we stuck with it.
Posted on 3/30/19 at 9:59 pm to OweO
No which is why I don’t care when family members issue out street justice for retribution when dumb juries get it wrong.
Posted on 3/30/19 at 11:13 pm to Jake_LaMotta
quote:
No which is why I don’t care when family members issue out street justice for retribution when dumb juries get it wrong.
And if it turns out that the "family" was wrong, do we wipe out the entire family tree in retribution as well?
Posted on 3/30/19 at 11:23 pm to Slippy
quote:
People's decisions, however, are certainly colored
agree completely
Posted on 3/31/19 at 12:03 am to OweO
Juries are generally very impressionable people. That’s who the prosecutors want in selection. Unless you have a vicious defense attorney you are pretty much screwed every time.
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