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re: Delphi, IN Murders Trial Thread
Posted on 10/27/24 at 3:23 pm to POTUS2024
Posted on 10/27/24 at 3:23 pm to POTUS2024
Just to clarify, I’m not talking about any confessions gotten via law enforcement interrogation. I’m strictly talking about the ones to his wife and mother from jail that would have been recorded. I think those will carry much more weight than ones law enforcement got out of him.
And as far as “only things the killer would knowqq
P fun,” I can’t remember if somebody reported he admitted to this in one of the confessions or if they were just using it as an example of something only the killer would know, but we know they didn’t retrieve 2 items of clothing the girls had on. 1 of them’s underwear and 1 sock.
And as far as “only things the killer would knowqq
P fun,” I can’t remember if somebody reported he admitted to this in one of the confessions or if they were just using it as an example of something only the killer would know, but we know they didn’t retrieve 2 items of clothing the girls had on. 1 of them’s underwear and 1 sock.
1
Posted on 10/27/24 at 4:22 pm to Hot Carl
There's no telling on the confessions but the LE there is like a circus act so I still lean toward the defense beating them up like a bald headed mule.
The lead investigator claimed Allen showed signs of deception and claimed that Allen simply looking down was a sign of deception. When defense counsel began the cross examination, his first comment was, "LT Holeman, I noticed you looked down quite a bit during your testimony, was that a sign you were being deceptive?" I don't think the jury is going to end up with much, if any, confidence in the investigation when this is said and done.
Another thing that came out was that Allen was Mirandized at home or some other location - then later he was taken to the police station - with a change in circumstances like that, he must be Mirandized again, yet conveniently that part of the interrogation was not on video and LE claimed they had technical issues. LE in this case is not only looking bad, they are starting to look corrupt.
The lead investigator claimed Allen showed signs of deception and claimed that Allen simply looking down was a sign of deception. When defense counsel began the cross examination, his first comment was, "LT Holeman, I noticed you looked down quite a bit during your testimony, was that a sign you were being deceptive?" I don't think the jury is going to end up with much, if any, confidence in the investigation when this is said and done.
Another thing that came out was that Allen was Mirandized at home or some other location - then later he was taken to the police station - with a change in circumstances like that, he must be Mirandized again, yet conveniently that part of the interrogation was not on video and LE claimed they had technical issues. LE in this case is not only looking bad, they are starting to look corrupt.
Posted on 10/27/24 at 4:33 pm to lachellie
What side of the creek were the girls’ pictures and specifically the video of down the hill guy taken at?
Also what direction was the guy heading at the time of video?
I think it’s elevated a little longer on south side of creek, but I also don’t think there is much more to the path in that direction. Looks like it ends at what may be a long extended driveway a house has to use to access public roads. Maybe that’s still part of trail but not sure how people in that house enter and exit with vehicles (or map app just out of date).
Posted on 10/27/24 at 9:29 pm to dallastigers
quote:
What side of the creek were the girls’ pictures and specifically the video of down the hill guy taken at?
They were on the south side of the creek at the south end of the bridge. He was walking south towards them from the north part of the bridge. I think they pick him up on video around 60 ft (maybe yards), but it was like the last quarter or 5th of the bridge or something close. And he was gaining ground pretty swiftly.
quote:
I think it’s elevated a little longer on south side of creek, but I also don’t think there is much more to the path in that direction. Looks like it ends at what may be a long extended driveway
They left any designated path, but once they were “down the hill,” the terrain was flat enough. They then crossed the creek from the south side to the north side, and the crime scene wound up not too far north of the creek.
Now, whether he ordered them across the creek or one or both of them took off to attempt an escape, who knows.
Posted on 10/28/24 at 9:08 am to Hot Carl
Who’s the prosecution calling today? The 3 girls that saw him on the trail? (It was 4, but one was young and he claims to have not seen her, so not sure they’ll call her). I think I may have heard they’re showing the jury his police station interrogation videos today. Not sure how much that’s gonna help.
It’s gonna likely come down to his in jail confessions. Who do they have to call to get those introduced? Somebody in charge of recording the calls? Or monitoring them? My impression is that’s gonna wind up being the most damning for him (combined with him placing himself at the scene at the time wearing exactly what Bridge Guy was wearing). So I’m sure they’ll save that for last.
And to the guy (POTUS, I think) that said LE bumbled the investigation, I don’t think there’s much doubt about that. They were in over their heads for a case this big. But I almost always lean towards incompetence over corruption. And I don’t think, as incompetent as LE may come out looking, it’s gonna be enough to overcome his own words.
It’s gonna likely come down to his in jail confessions. Who do they have to call to get those introduced? Somebody in charge of recording the calls? Or monitoring them? My impression is that’s gonna wind up being the most damning for him (combined with him placing himself at the scene at the time wearing exactly what Bridge Guy was wearing). So I’m sure they’ll save that for last.
And to the guy (POTUS, I think) that said LE bumbled the investigation, I don’t think there’s much doubt about that. They were in over their heads for a case this big. But I almost always lean towards incompetence over corruption. And I don’t think, as incompetent as LE may come out looking, it’s gonna be enough to overcome his own words.
Posted on 10/28/24 at 10:04 am to Gris Gris
quote:
Has any of this come in? If not, will it? I don't recall how we know this information
It was entered in the probable cause hearing. The jury hasn’t heard it yet unless they did before they were selected and lied about it.
quote:
I would assume the wife can't be forced to testify against her husband,
Right, but she doesn’t have to. The calls were recorded from the jail and are fair game. They don’t need the wife to testify to introduce it.
quote:
I thought he changed the times he was there a few times,
He did, which is not good for him.
quote:
I didn't think the time of the murders has been established other than when they were last known to be alive and some time before they were found.
I don’t know if it will ever be established to within the hour or 2, but I think they’ll be able to narrow it down to closer than what you’re suggesting. The dad made them both banana pancakes that morning, so they know when they last ate and could narrow it down based on digestion. But I’m not sure who would testify to that—hasn’t the guy who did the autopsy already testified?
But more than that, their exact time of death isn’t all that relevant. The entire crime began with the abduction, and they have that time pretty locked down based on the snap chat pic and the video Libby recorded. I think it’s like 47 seconds long or something and includes a lot more than just “Guys, down the hill.” The girls talked too. I think Abby said something like “Is he getting closer? Don’t leave me up here.” And Libby said she was looking for a path, presumably to where they could try to escape. One said seething about “he’s got a gun” and supposedly you can hear what sounds like a gun cocking (which wouldn’t have ejected the cartridge).
All that was in the probable cause warrant. The jury may have actually seen and heard it last week—I get all these YouTube channels confused. I know some people in court said it was hard to make out what all was said. Clearly LE had to enhance both the video and audio. But again, it’s chilling, but I don’t think they need it to convict. No matter what you think of LE and how they handled the investigation, these are gonna be hard to overcome:
1) He placed himself at the scene—admitted to being on platform 1 on the bridge
2) He admitted to wearing the exact same clothes “Bridge Guy” was wearing
3) the girls that passed him and saw him and presumedly, identified him as “Bridge Guy.” They also stopped at a bench at like 1:26, which was BEFORE they saw him. They got this time either from a pic they snapped and/or a car matching his was caught on camera heading towards the building where he admitted parking. He changed his timeline because he knew they saw him around 1:30 and thought he could just say that he was leaving at that time, so 12:00-1:30 would have worked. He wasn’t counting on the camera picking up what looked to be his car passing west towards where he was going to park. If he was leaving, he would have been going east. And he obviously didn’t count on Libby’s SnapChat pic or video showing him were timed after 2.
4) the jail-house/prison confessions to his wife and mom that were recorded and apparently has him admitting to things only the killer would know. (Could be the pair of underwear and a sock that were missing that he may have kept as a trophy or something. Could be that said he just sliced Abby on the left side of her neck near her carotid while he sliced/stabbed/more violently carved Libby across the entire front of her neck. Those things we now know, perhaps there were other things he could have said that we don’t know about)
I think those things will probably be enough to convict. They could totally dismiss the gun cartridge, the LE interrogation, the woman who saw a “muddy and bloody” man walking west down 300 towards where his car was parked. All that is just more circumstantial evidence that the prosecution is just throwing out there, but I don’t think they’re “necessary.” Assuming the confession recordings are as damning as we’ve been lead to believe.
This post was edited on 10/28/24 at 10:07 am
Posted on 10/28/24 at 10:07 am to Hot Carl
Now, the one thing I’m not sure about—I’m not an attorney—is if LE obtained a warrant based on something the judge rules as improper, and everything they got after that gets thrown out due to it being “fruit from the poisonous tree.” That may not be in play here as the probable cause warrant had its own hearing and that is where that would have been ruled on, but I’m not sure.
One more quick thing I just remembered, they asked him what he was doing there, and he said he was watching the fish and looking at some stock stuff on his phone. But his phone never pinged anywhere near there at the time (or anywhere else, I’d imagine, so he either didn’t have it with him or had it turned off). Another little lie he told that’s probably no big deal by itself, but adds up with the rest.
One more quick thing I just remembered, they asked him what he was doing there, and he said he was watching the fish and looking at some stock stuff on his phone. But his phone never pinged anywhere near there at the time (or anywhere else, I’d imagine, so he either didn’t have it with him or had it turned off). Another little lie he told that’s probably no big deal by itself, but adds up with the rest.
Posted on 10/28/24 at 10:12 am to Hot Carl
quote:
And to the guy (POTUS, I think) that said LE bumbled the investigation, I don’t think there’s much doubt about that. They were in over their heads for a case this big. But I almost always lean towards incompetence over corruption. And I don’t think, as incompetent as LE may come out looking, it’s gonna be enough to overcome his own words.
Are we talking about the interrogation after the arrest or initially once the girls were found? Because this was a huge case in Indiana, it would be shocking to have an incompetent local officer do the interrogation years later when I would think they could have had state police involved or at least someone around that was experienced and competent.
Posted on 10/28/24 at 10:30 am to Hot Carl
Also, there are a ton of different YouTubers there in the courtroom every day taking notes. Can’t have any electrical devices in the courtroom. Everyone will have their favorites, so whatever. But to get a really good idea of how it all went down, I would recommend checking out Gary Hughes Investigates channel. He’s the best I’ve seen of taking the information we have, using Google Earth, and explaining it in a much more easy to understand concrete way instead of the more abstract, use your imagination that most rely on.
He does a live stream almost every night, and they can get very monotonous. And he certainly doesn’t suffer fools and can be kind of an ornery a-hole to people with wild speculation. But his computer generated re-enactments are by far the best I’ve seen. He did a great job with the Idaho 4 murders, too.
I’m gonna post a video he did about 5 years ago reenacting what their last moments on the bridge were. It’s about 20 minutes. I’ll post another more recent one where he and his wife went out there and shot video with a camera and a drone. Probably less than 20 minutes. But they’re good places to get started if you want to look around and find some that show what you’re most interested in seeing.
Terrifying Delphi Bridge Guy Animation
Dephi—Knowing the Crime Scene Area
Delphi—The Base Case Against Richard Allen
Threw the last one in there because I haven’t seen it, and it’s only 21 minutes. But it’s from 9 days ago (Day 1 of the trial/jury selection) or the day before. He’s just using Google Earth, his animation tools, and what we/he knows from the probable cause hearing. He read the transcripts somehow (I’m not sure if they’re available to the general public or he got it from a journalist who got it from filing a FOIA).
ETA—after watching the 3rd video, I think it’s probably the best one to start with to get the clearest overall picture. A couple of minor things have come out in trial that don’t add up perfectly. The one woman who claimed to have seen him from about 50 feet was probably closer to 140 or so feet. I’m not sure that matters—some people are bad at estimating distances. He updates his videos with all new information that comes out in trial, but so far there’s been nothing of real consequence.
Unfortunately, some of those updates are somewhere in a 3 1/2 hour long stream and he hasn’t edited them down and released them as just the 20 minute video. But still, the 3rd one is the best for an overall picture/timeline. The it’s is the most chilling. And the 2nd is literally boots/camera on the ground, but it’s not the same time of year and all the leaves are on the trees and they’ve redone most of the bridge to where it doesn’t look anything like it did originally except the very last bit of it that’s on public property.
He does a live stream almost every night, and they can get very monotonous. And he certainly doesn’t suffer fools and can be kind of an ornery a-hole to people with wild speculation. But his computer generated re-enactments are by far the best I’ve seen. He did a great job with the Idaho 4 murders, too.
I’m gonna post a video he did about 5 years ago reenacting what their last moments on the bridge were. It’s about 20 minutes. I’ll post another more recent one where he and his wife went out there and shot video with a camera and a drone. Probably less than 20 minutes. But they’re good places to get started if you want to look around and find some that show what you’re most interested in seeing.
Terrifying Delphi Bridge Guy Animation
Dephi—Knowing the Crime Scene Area
Delphi—The Base Case Against Richard Allen
Threw the last one in there because I haven’t seen it, and it’s only 21 minutes. But it’s from 9 days ago (Day 1 of the trial/jury selection) or the day before. He’s just using Google Earth, his animation tools, and what we/he knows from the probable cause hearing. He read the transcripts somehow (I’m not sure if they’re available to the general public or he got it from a journalist who got it from filing a FOIA).
ETA—after watching the 3rd video, I think it’s probably the best one to start with to get the clearest overall picture. A couple of minor things have come out in trial that don’t add up perfectly. The one woman who claimed to have seen him from about 50 feet was probably closer to 140 or so feet. I’m not sure that matters—some people are bad at estimating distances. He updates his videos with all new information that comes out in trial, but so far there’s been nothing of real consequence.
Unfortunately, some of those updates are somewhere in a 3 1/2 hour long stream and he hasn’t edited them down and released them as just the 20 minute video. But still, the 3rd one is the best for an overall picture/timeline. The it’s is the most chilling. And the 2nd is literally boots/camera on the ground, but it’s not the same time of year and all the leaves are on the trees and they’ve redone most of the bridge to where it doesn’t look anything like it did originally except the very last bit of it that’s on public property.
This post was edited on 10/28/24 at 10:47 am
Posted on 10/28/24 at 2:06 pm to Hot Carl
Summary from this morning....
https://x.com/MaxLewisTV/status/1850947709676470502
https://x.com/MaxLewisTV/status/1850947709676470502
quote:
-Up on the stand today is Stacy Bozinovski
-She is an forensic scientist and DNA analyst at the Indiana State Police Lab
-She went through all the swabs and things tested for DNA in the case
-Swabs from the girls indicated possible semen but no semen detected
-Male DNA found on some swabs
-However, the analyst testifed that finding male DNA on some of the areas swabbed was "not necessarily an unusual result"
-We learned that a mysterious hair found in Abby's hand turned out to be from Libby's sister Kelsi
-The cartridge found between the girls' bodies was pulled out in court for the first time
-Analyst said it appeared slightly dirty
-She testified that cartridges are hard to get DNA from because they're so small
-DNA on cartridge was "insufficient for further analysis"
-They went through all the clothing items of the girls and blood spots at the crime scene
-Some partial profiles found, but not enough to compare
-During a re-test, lab thought they found a DNA profile of an unknown male
-Entered it in to CODIS
-Turned out be a lab employee
-Analyst testified reminder was sent out after that about wearing protective equipment
-Some hairs from the scene were sent to FBI
-FBI concluded 3 hairs were not consistent with Abby and Libby
-There are some new technologies that could test hairs without a root
-However, lab didn't do that because success rates are low and testing would destroy the sample
-James Luttrell asked if they found Richard Allen's DNA in any of the items. The answer was no
-They didn't find a male DNA profile suitable for comparison
-That was end of direct examination which took the entire morning
Posted on 10/28/24 at 2:08 pm to bikerack
quote:
-Up on the stand today is Stacy Bozinovski
-She is an forensic scientist and DNA analyst at the Indiana State Police Lab
-She went through all the swabs and things tested for DNA in the case
-Swabs from the girls indicated possible semen but no semen detected
-Male DNA found on some swabs
-However, the analyst testifed that finding male DNA on some of the areas swabbed was "not necessarily an unusual result"
-We learned that a mysterious hair found in Abby's hand turned out to be from Libby's sister Kelsi
-The cartridge found between the girls' bodies was pulled out in court for the first time
-Analyst said it appeared slightly dirty
-She testified that cartridges are hard to get DNA from because they're so small
-DNA on cartridge was "insufficient for further analysis"
-They went through all the clothing items of the girls and blood spots at the crime scene
-Some partial profiles found, but not enough to compare
-During a re-test, lab thought they found a DNA profile of an unknown male
-Entered it in to CODIS
-Turned out be a lab employee
-Analyst testified reminder was sent out after that about wearing protective equipment
-Some hairs from the scene were sent to FBI
-FBI concluded 3 hairs were not consistent with Abby and Libby
-There are some new technologies that could test hairs without a root
-However, lab didn't do that because success rates are low and testing would destroy the sample
-James Luttrell asked if they found Richard Allen's DNA in any of the items. The answer was no
-They didn't find a male DNA profile suitable for comparison
-That was end of direct examination which took the entire morning
Sounds like he might get off based on no evidence
Posted on 10/28/24 at 2:19 pm to 225Tyga
quote:
Sounds like he might get off based on no evidence
If you believe the “bridge guy” is the killer (and you should) and they can prove beyond reasonable doubt Allen is “bridge guy” is that no evidence?
Posted on 10/28/24 at 2:44 pm to WestSideTiger
quote:
If you believe the “bridge guy” is the killer (and you should) and they can prove beyond reasonable doubt Allen is “bridge guy” is that no evidence?
They haven’t proven beyond a reasonable doubt that bridge guy is even the killer, much less proven that Richard Allen is bridge guy.
Posted on 10/28/24 at 2:50 pm to bikerack
quote:oooof. Great handling of evidence there
-Turned out be a lab employee
Still can't get over the gun testing thing. Dude's gonna walk.
Posted on 10/28/24 at 2:56 pm to WestSideTiger
I believe bridge guy is the killer but it has to be proven.
Posted on 10/28/24 at 2:57 pm to 225Tyga
quote:
Sounds like he might get off based on no evidence
You know we convicted people in this country for well over a century before we had DNA technology, no? CSI shows have warped a lot of y’all’s brains.
Posted on 10/28/24 at 3:00 pm to 225Tyga
That is proved by eye witnesses and the time line. Only person observed on the bridge during the key time period by multiple witnesses. And hes filmed on the victims phone minutes before the murders.
There is no doubt bridge man is the killer. The picture is a dead ringer for allen.
There is no doubt bridge man is the killer. The picture is a dead ringer for allen.
This post was edited on 10/28/24 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 10/28/24 at 3:04 pm to Epic Cajun
quote:
They haven’t proven beyond a reasonable doubt that bridge guy is even the killer,
They’ve proven he was at the very least the abductor due to the video and audio off Libby’s phone.
quote:
much less proven that Richard Allen is bridge guy.
I mean, I’m not sure what else you require. He placed himself there at the time. He admitted to wearing the same clothing as Bridge Guy. 3 girls he passed right by will all, I assume, testify to him being the guy they passed. And there’s another woman who identified him standing on Platform 1. She was somewhere between 50 and like 130 feet from him and is adamant he was the guy she saw. All that’s reasonable enough for me to not doubt it was him. Again, what would it take for you?
Posted on 10/28/24 at 3:05 pm to Epic Cajun
quote:
They haven’t proven beyond a reasonable doubt that bridge guy is even the killer, much less proven that Richard Allen is bridge guy.
Let’s start with “is the bridge guy the killer?”
This is what seals it for me. I need concrete evidence as well as you do.
quote:
At 2:05 p.m., Libby posted a photo of the high bridge just before they crossed.
At 2:13 p.m., Cecil said, "a video was recorded." The 43-second video, which jurors saw Tuesday, showed Abby crossing the bridge and a man - the one who would later become widely known as the "Bridge Guy" and a primary suspect in the case - following her. Prosecutors allege that man is Allen.
The last movement detected by the phone's Apple health app was at 2:32
So roughly 15 mins between interaction with bridge guy and phone movement ended. Girls were found about a half mile from there. Libby’s phone was found underneath her.
Posted on 10/28/24 at 3:15 pm to castorinho
quote:
-Turned out be a lab employee
oooof. Great handling of evidence there
Happens all the time. That’s why the lab employees’ DNA is in CODIS to begin with.
quote:
Still can't get over the gun testing thing. Dude's gonna walk.
What? You’d let him walk over that? Was it compelling evidence? No. But they didn’t even really need that. May have been enough just to say he owned a gun that fired the same caliber bullet. They’re just trying to add every little piece of circumstantial evidence they can to add up—and plenty, if not most, convictions are gotten using circumstantial evidence only.
And I forgot about the camera catching a car that looked like his passing by to park at 1:27, I believe. They didn’t get the license plate, so no way to officially tie it to him. But all these things add up. He would have to be the unluckiest guy in the history of the world for it to have been somebody else.
But I think they’re building up these small pieces of circumstantial evidence to paint a picture, but they’re going to close with the 3 girls who can identify him there at a certain time, and then the recording of the jail-house confessions is gonna be the grand finale. I don’t know this, but I am (educated) assuming that they are pretty fricking damning.
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