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Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:03 am to MWP
quote:
Having a flashback to the Back to the Future kid showing Paw the mutant in his comic book. Choot him Paw.
Haha. I could see a Civil War soliders doing this if they happen to come across a SEAL sniper. They would be rattled thinking some damn wizards are running around.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:06 am to LasVegasTiger
quote:
Yep, unlimited ammo. A Delorean will be working overtime
Won't this tie them down to their supply base? I mean if they're going to inflict enough damage on one of the two main field armies of either side, they will have to kill or wound at least 50,000 - 60,000 men. Let's say that every 4th shot they fire hits flesh (that's being massively generous when dealing with auto fire BTW), we're talking approximately 200,000 to 500,000 rounds of ammo they will have to have on them.
I don't have the exact specs on here here at the office but I'm guessing 100 rounds of 5.56 would weight about 3 to 5 lbs. That means they would have a ammo supply weighing anywhere from 6,000 lbs on the low end to 25,000 lbs on the high end. And that's if they just have 5.56. How prey tell are they going to not be tied down to their massive supply depot?
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:14 am to Darth_Vader
You're assuming they have to wipe out the entire union army. A few devastating kill ratios in the most major, historic battles would prob be enough.
ETA: kind of read your post wrong, but still think their hit per round ratio could be better than 1/4, and I believe they wouldn't have to hit as many targets as you're assuming. But JMHO
ETA: kind of read your post wrong, but still think their hit per round ratio could be better than 1/4, and I believe they wouldn't have to hit as many targets as you're assuming. But JMHO
This post was edited on 4/1/14 at 11:21 am
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:18 am to LasVegasTiger
For sure.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:20 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
That means they would have a ammo supply weighing anywhere from 6,000 lbs on the low end to 25,000 lbs on the high end
Better get Doc to put a flux capiciter in a F250 before we send 100 operators back in time.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:26 am to LasVegasTiger
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:44 am to Michael J Cocks
quote:
You're assuming they have to wipe out the entire union army. A few devastating kill ratios in the most major, historic battles would prob be enough.
No the numbers I gave were just to inflict a little over 50% casualties on either the Army of the Potomac or the Army of Northern Virginia at either of their primes.
The reason I use 50% as my benchmark is anything less than this would still leave the main body of that field army as a viable force.
One other thing, in addition to inflicting this high of a casualty rate, the SEALs would also have to figure out a way to trap the remaining soldiers and prevent them from retreating to "fight again another day". Now how a force of 100 is going to be able to corral a force of somewhere between 40,000 or so (give or take a few thousand) is a mystery to me.
And this also still leaves the issue of the artillery at the disposal of Civil War commanders. Being that the SEALs would be tied down to their ammo supply which would weigh in the thousands of pounds they would not be mobile at all. In fact they would be virtually chained to their ammo dump. This mans their position would be easily fixed and surrounded. All the Civil War commanders would have to do would be to site their heavy artillery out of the SEAL's range and blast them to kingdom come. Game, set, match.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:47 am to Michael J Cocks
quote:
quote:
First of all you dont have 100 seals against the entire union army. You have 100 seals against whatever force is in front of them. Say you are at Gettysburg. 100 seals moving in the dead of night with todays rifles,night vision scopes, and body armor, they would easily take out any defense ahead of them. You push in the regular forces (confederates) behind them in the breach. The seals would be almost unstoppable. They would turn the tide of any battle, therefore, could turn the tide of the war.
This was kind of what I was thinking yesterday. Also, wanted to pose the question, do they get an unlimited amount of ammo? Or just what they can carry through the time machine? I think even a group of rangers could do it using gorilla tactics and night raids with Kevlar and nvg's.
Something else to consider is that the opposing forces were not without weapons. They were not what we have today, but the artillery of that time was HIGHLY effective and pretty accurate (with a skilled and experienced crew). Cannon shot from Civil War was usually between 6-20 pounds and traveled at a rate of 1000-1500 FPS with a range of over 1500 yards.
A 6 pound projectile traveling at 1500 fps that strikes a person with modern body armor would render said person into pink mist.
While the SEALs weapons are much more accurate, it is not out of the question that some would become injured, or killed. Even with unlimited ammo 100 vs 500,000 is impossible. Even with 100 vs 20,000 (20,000 being an expected force in some of the larger battles) the numbers would eventually fall for the opposing forces.You would be expecting each SEAL to kill 200 men, Then go on to the next battle and do it again.
On day 2 of Gettysburg there were 90,000 Union troops. There is no way that 100 men could kill 900 men each without their positions being over run. They could not shoot fast enough. It would be like a human tsunami.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:50 am to Michael J Cocks
Didnt read thw whole thread, but 100 SEALS vs the entire Union or Confedaracy, even with modern weapons that would be a tough task. Just the shear numbers of soldiers would be almost impossible to overcome. The SEALS even though in time travel, they cant take radio towers and modes of communication back with them. No electricity also. No modern medicine. Just some things to think about.
Confedaracy at its peak had 1.2 milion soldiers
Union at its peak had 2.2 million soldiers.
If you had maybe 100k Rangers, Seals and Black Ops type guys maybe, but not 100. No chance
Confedaracy at its peak had 1.2 milion soldiers
Union at its peak had 2.2 million soldiers.
If you had maybe 100k Rangers, Seals and Black Ops type guys maybe, but not 100. No chance
Posted on 4/1/14 at 2:16 pm to MrBiriwa
Well to be fair, it's not just 100 SEALs vs an entire Union Army. I was under the impression that they'd be working with the South. In this case, I strongly believe 100 Seals along with their knowledge and skill set levels the playing field vs the million or so soldiers the South are lacking. Again, I'm talking about involving the training and force multiplication of Southern troops, and then doing the things they do best. Recon and intelligence gathering, and then launching pesky, precise raids on strategic points, taking out officers, generals etc. And in saying this, since they are going back in time, I'm assuming they're taking back with them the knowledge of key encampments and supply lines. You could split these guys up into 10, 15 or even 25 teams, all over the region. Within weeks you're talking exponential improvements in the Southern armies capabilities, along with first hand knowledge of what, where and when key events are supposed to happen.
It's not just 100 guys with better weapons vs the Union. It's the south having the capability to use 100 of the smartest and best trained warriors in the world at their disposal, and while using tactics that haven't even been imagined yet. The weapons and knowledge are just lagniappe.
It's not just 100 guys with better weapons vs the Union. It's the south having the capability to use 100 of the smartest and best trained warriors in the world at their disposal, and while using tactics that haven't even been imagined yet. The weapons and knowledge are just lagniappe.
This post was edited on 4/1/14 at 2:18 pm
Posted on 4/1/14 at 2:46 pm to Michael J Cocks
And when the Union (or Conferderacy) charges the lines what happens?
All of the advantages that everyone in the last 17 pages cites is based on the SEAL's being at distance and picking people off.
I think everyone is forgetting that the tactics of the time included en masse bayonet charges. Once you are at bad breath distance, the advantages are all gone and it is man to man.
All of the advantages that everyone in the last 17 pages cites is based on the SEAL's being at distance and picking people off.
I think everyone is forgetting that the tactics of the time included en masse bayonet charges. Once you are at bad breath distance, the advantages are all gone and it is man to man.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 2:47 pm to Michael J Cocks
Exactly. This guy gets it.
It's not 100 SEALS standing on the front line to face the first volley or an en masse bayonet charge. It SEALS doing what SEALS do. You dispatch 10 teams of 10 SEALS, or even 20 teams of 5, who then systematically take out all of the Union's top commanders in covert operations. You then have a Union army in disarray - not to mention the change in morale with the spread of stories about their "supernatural" abilities and weaponry.
Nothing happens, because the SEALS are never anywhere near the front lines. They are too busy doing covert SEAL stuff.
It's not 100 SEALS standing on the front line to face the first volley or an en masse bayonet charge. It SEALS doing what SEALS do. You dispatch 10 teams of 10 SEALS, or even 20 teams of 5, who then systematically take out all of the Union's top commanders in covert operations. You then have a Union army in disarray - not to mention the change in morale with the spread of stories about their "supernatural" abilities and weaponry.
quote:
And when the Union (or Conferderacy) charges the lines what happens
Nothing happens, because the SEALS are never anywhere near the front lines. They are too busy doing covert SEAL stuff.
This post was edited on 4/1/14 at 2:54 pm
Posted on 4/1/14 at 3:28 pm to 911Moto
quote:
911Moto
Exactly!
Why exactly is there such a misconception that ultimately the seals will be rounded up and either beaten by a swarm of Union troops in hand to hand combat, or vaporized by arty? None of this, literally, would most likely happen. They could jab or even uppercut then bob and weave for an insurmountable amount of time. Rinse and repeat.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 1:18 am to Michael J Cocks
Since the SEALS in question have unlimited access to supplies, why would they bother fighting when they can just sell unlimited MRE's to both armies, find a whorehouse in Atlanta and just drink and screw all the time? Every SEAL would do that in a heartbeat.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 2:01 am to Swoopin
There were over 2 fricking million soldiers in the Union army. How in the hell do you think they could lose to 100 men? I dont care if the guys were magic...
Posted on 4/8/14 at 6:26 am to Hester Carries
How the actual frick did it take until page 17 for someone to finally come out and say the SEALS aren't a conventional force. They aren't an infantry line company, they would be going after high value emplacements, people, and targets of opportunity all while doing recon and surveillance aka snooping and pooping.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 6:50 am to Hester Carries
quote:
There were over 2 fricking million soldiers in the Union army. How in the hell do you think they could lose to 100 men? I dont care if the guys were magic...
Because they wouldn't have to face 2 million men lined up against them. They would take put all the commanders and leaders who matter. A 2 million man army with no legitimate leader is not 2 million men strong. I think when we invaded Iraq they had the 4th largest army in the world - look how quickly they caved.
Posted on 4/8/14 at 7:38 am to MrExclusive
quote:
it would be interesting to see how the civil war era forces adapt to the strategy that SEALS use...
they wouldn't be marching around in columns for long
Solid point. I wonder how long it would take to change tactics
Posted on 4/8/14 at 3:33 pm to 911Moto
quote:
Because they wouldn't have to face 2 million men lined up against them. They would take put all the commanders and leaders who matter. A 2 million man army with no legitimate leader is not 2 million men strong. I think when we invaded Iraq they had the 4th largest army in the world - look how quickly they caved.
You dont think the Union Army would change its tactics if it was only fighting 100 guys? I think the the Seals are the shite, but c'mon...no way
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