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re: Church membership among US adults falls below 50% for the first time ever
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:08 pm to squid_hunt
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:08 pm to squid_hunt
quote:
Once again, application of the law is arbitrary. The acts themselves will be judged by society.
My compass is not of my own either. Only the application.
0
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:09 pm to Salmon
quote:
Our societies are based upon morality.
As you've pointed out, there's no morals without some concrete standard. It's arbitrary and individualistic. It's not about right and wrong, it's about what I think is right and what I can get away with. That is the definition of amoral.
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:12 pm to squid_hunt
quote:
As you've pointed out, there's no morals without some concrete standard.
Ah. Moral absolutism.
If morality evolves then morality doesn't exist.
Which is clearly nonsense.
quote:
It's arbitrary and individualistic.
Only the application, just as you have already admitted yourself doing.
Societal morality does evolve but it is not wholly individualistic.
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:17 pm to EmperorGout
I can tell you with 100% confidence that God and His church are not going anywhere
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:17 pm to Salmon
quote:
Which is clearly nonsense.
If it is right to do something today and wrong to do it tomorrow, it is not morals, but whim.
There requires some absolute to say this is right or that is wrong, to establish and then judge unchangingly.
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:18 pm to squid_hunt
One is capable of having morality without religion because many of the same actions that we define as moral and good lead to a more safe and stable society that is beneficial to those living within it.
I.e. you don't have act morally simply to obtain a ticket through the pearly gates. Acting morally is in your own self-interest.
The current problem, however, is that we are no longer united strongly as countrymen either. Human beings require shared myths of some sort to cohabitate peacefully and productively in large numbers. If we are no longer united under a shared religious myth or a shared flag, we are destined to fall apart.
I.e. you don't have act morally simply to obtain a ticket through the pearly gates. Acting morally is in your own self-interest.
The current problem, however, is that we are no longer united strongly as countrymen either. Human beings require shared myths of some sort to cohabitate peacefully and productively in large numbers. If we are no longer united under a shared religious myth or a shared flag, we are destined to fall apart.
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:20 pm to squid_hunt
quote:
If it is right to do something today and wrong to do it tomorrow, it is not morals, but whim.
how do you tangle with the fact that you and me would have completely different application of our own morals if we were born 100 years ago or 100 years from now?
quote:
There requires some absolute to say this is right or that is wrong, to establish and then judge unchangingly.
You're right to a degree. We do have natural laws that generally tell us what is right and what is wrong from a societal perspective.
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:21 pm to Norbert
quote:
One is capable of having morality without religion because many of the same actions that we define as moral and good lead to a more safe and stable society that is beneficial to those living within it.
This is a definition of morality that is obviously disagreed with by anarchists. How do you accommodate an anarchist's morality with your own?
The rest of what you said basically falls into the same category. That's nice, but without some outside standard, all of society basically boils down to right of might.
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:21 pm to Salmon
quote:
because only your definition of moral is the truth
Well that’s what the Bible is. It’s the Truth. The Truth can be raw and gut punch you at times. But the Truth never changes, nor does the Lord.
Truth has a name as well. It’s Jesus Christ. John 14:6
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:22 pm to Salmon
quote:
how do you tangle with the fact that you and me would have completely different application of our own morals if we were born 100 years ago or 100 years from now?
God is unchanging, of course.
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:23 pm to Norbert
quote:
If we are no longer united under a shared religious myth
What myth? I ask this with genuine interest
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:24 pm to Norbert
Well, and a lot of the cultural highlights of organized religion (Christianity but others as well) were shared by secular society. The concept of the family as a bedrock unit, the concept of merit-based success, of better/righteous/lasting ideas winning out over lesser ones, of individual worth (perhaps not individualism), of a country that encourages or at least allows pluralism and permits religion to grow, etc.
We're now confronting a growing movement that rejects most of those things. It's the reason there is presently common ground religious and areligious types concerned about the rise of illiberalism.
We're now confronting a growing movement that rejects most of those things. It's the reason there is presently common ground religious and areligious types concerned about the rise of illiberalism.
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:25 pm to squid_hunt
quote:
God is unchanging, of course.
but your (and everyone elses') interpretation is constantly changing
how does God tangle with that?
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:26 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Well, and a lot of the cultural highlights of organized religion (Christianity but others as well) were shared by secular society. The concept of the family as a bedrock unit, the concept of merit-based success, of better/righteous/lasting ideas winning out over lesser ones, of individual worth (perhaps not individualism), of a country that encourages or at least allows pluralism and permits religion to grow, etc.
We're now confronting a growing movement that rejects most of those things. It's the reason there is presently common ground religious and areligious types concerned about the rise of illiberalism.
I agree with all of this
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:26 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
The concept of the family as a bedrock unit, the concept of merit-based success, of better/righteous/lasting ideas winning out over lesser ones, of individual worth, of a country that encourages or at least allows pluralism and permits religion to grow, etc.
I think this is something we have underestimated. We assumed society could be moral without religion because we've always been under religion. It's like a fish assuming it could breath if you removed the water because he's always been able to breath before. It's a childish way of thinking, but after last summer, we are obviously dealing with a society of children.
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:28 pm to Salmon
quote:
how does God tangle with that?
He corrects and he uses the church to teach through the Bible and the Holy Spirit. And he waits.
And in the end, he will judge. It's happened at the end of every age of men. We're just at the end of our age and it's been a while.
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:28 pm to EmperorGout
I’ve never encountered any correlation in church attendance/religious affiliation and morality
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:29 pm to Salmon
What interpretations have changed? Can you cite something specific? Happy to have that conversation
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:30 pm to squid_hunt
quote:
I think this is something we have underestimated. We assumed society could be moral without religion because we've always been under religion.
Now we are starting to agree on things
I do believe that people need a strong foundation of beliefs and without a strong foundation, they flounder about searching for something, which many have currently replaced with politics, which worries me, as religion, at its core, is a set of principle that guide people to be better, whereas politics its core is nothing but divisiveness
Posted on 3/30/21 at 1:30 pm to Norbert
quote:
One is capable of having morality without religion because many of the same actions that we define as moral and good lead to a more safe and stable society that is beneficial to those living within it.
Correct. We see this with the SJW movement where morality is tied to different fairy tales.
Morality is personal, whether youre religious or not.
Pushing it on others is ridiculous. The politically religious are far more bothersome than the spiritually religious.
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