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re: Challenge for the enlightened members of the OT
Posted on 12/28/17 at 12:48 pm to Tyga Woods
Posted on 12/28/17 at 12:48 pm to Tyga Woods
The universe and in fact time itself is cyclical.
The universe is in a constant state of expanding and contracting. The fabric of space and time itself bends around it.
So it never really began and it never really ends although there are infinite beginnings and endings relative to your state.
The universe is in a constant state of expanding and contracting. The fabric of space and time itself bends around it.
So it never really began and it never really ends although there are infinite beginnings and endings relative to your state.
0
Posted on 12/28/17 at 12:51 pm to troyt37
quote:
but whatever you believe is your faith, because you don't know.
Or you could just admit that you don't know and try to accept that. No faith required.
But I'd say the best course of action is to admit that God exists, he loves us all and is all powerful. Unfortunately he's pretty dumb. But we love him anyway like a parent of a downsie kid. Blessed be his dumb name.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 12:55 pm to Tyga Woods
quote:
Explain how the universe began. How did everything come from nothing?
It's entirely possible to create something from nothing. Quantum mechanics just notes that the result must be a particle and it's corresponding antiparticle. There's nothing to stop it from happening, it's just that the sum must still be zero.
The odds against this happening at the scale of a universe are, of course, incredibly high to say the least. That said, if time goes on for long enough, incredibly rare things can happen.
The puzzle seems to be what happened to the corresponding "anti" particles, there have been various attempts to explain this but none have been very persuasive.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 12:56 pm to White Roach
quote:
But you're okay with the man in the sky taking six days to do it, then kicking back on the seventh?
Six days, youbare smarter than this. You've researched the issue and know better. Right????
Posted on 12/28/17 at 1:06 pm to Tyga Woods
The simplest is we're still figuring it out to precision because we don't have all the math yet.
But the big bang explains a lot with what we know so far. Because otherwise you'll get into discovering the stories of David are heavily influenced by predecessors like Gilgamesh.
How the Hebrews dropped the female counter part of God and on and on.
But the big bang explains a lot with what we know so far. Because otherwise you'll get into discovering the stories of David are heavily influenced by predecessors like Gilgamesh.
How the Hebrews dropped the female counter part of God and on and on.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 1:08 pm to LucasP
quote:
Or you could just admit that you don't know and try to accept that. No faith required.
I freely admit that I don't know, but no faith required isn't a logical conclusion. No faith required means faith that you won't burn in hell for eternity, because you refused to heed the word that you had been given.
quote:
But I'd say the best course of action is to admit that God exists, he loves us all and is all powerful. Unfortunately he's pretty dumb.
Kudos for illustrating the lack of intelligence His creation is often capable of, but if you believe God exists, and He is the Creator, then he is the Creator of all knowledge, intelligence and wisdom, ever. Hurling insults at things you can't or won't understand is hardly a sign of higher level thinking.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 1:17 pm to troyt37
quote:
Kudos for illustrating the lack of intelligence His creation is often capable of, but if you believe God exists, and He is the Creator, then he is the Creator of all knowledge, intelligence and wisdom, ever.
It's supposed to be a humorous take on an old paradox. If God is all knowing and all powerful and all good, then how can he allow pain and evil exist?
Some say he isn't all powerful, as illustrated at the end of Job. Some say that he isn't all good. This take is simply the next logical option, that he's not that bright.
I personally kinda like it and find comfort in an imperfect God.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 1:24 pm to troyt37
quote:
It doesn't matter what your beliefs are. Unless you are the one human who knows all the answers, you simply have faith that the way you believe is the correct way.
Sorry...but you're parroting religious apologetics with this line.
My belief system is simply the default proposition until the supernatural can be proven. In a universe where, as far as we can tell without resorting to special pleading for our own pet beliefs, there is only the material, the most logical conclusion is that we live in a materialistic universe.
I don't say I know that, just that given what we do know and what we don't, it's the most logically consistent conclusion.
But I don't need to prove materialism, though. I know you won't like that, but that's simply too bad. We already know that a material universe DOES exist. We live and interact with it all day long...all our lives. People can speculate all they want about a potential supernatural one, but those that do then have the burden of proof for their proposition. And defaulting to, "But my God can't be proven in any materialistic sense" is just a cop out. If the thing you propose can not be tested for in any way and all proposed ways to sense that it exists are met with reasons for why it can't, what's the difference between that thing existing...and not?
So no...my world view is not a faith based one, and I tend to resent being lumped in with the religious in this regard simply because it makes a better straw man.
You have a faith based position, and I'm simply saying that until you prove yours, I don't believe yours. I does not require any faith on my part to tell you that you have not bothered to prove your proposition.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 1:33 pm to LucasP
quote:
If God is all knowing and all powerful and all good, then how can he allow pain and evil exist?
I don't believe it does exist in Heaven. On earth, there is free will, and sin, and pain, and evil. If God exists, so does Satan. Where does Satan exist, if not on earth, and within the people?
Posted on 12/28/17 at 1:36 pm to troyt37
quote:
On earth, there is free will, and sin, and pain, and evil. s,
All creations of the all mighty creator, so he can't be benevolent. Unless he's dumb and didn't mean to, which is my thesis.
Further proof:
This post was edited on 12/28/17 at 1:38 pm
Posted on 12/28/17 at 1:50 pm to Tyga Woods
Before time began there was no heaven, no earth and no space between. A vast dark ocean washed upon the shores of nothingness and licked the edges of night. A giant cobra, Shesha, floated on the waters. Asleep within its endless coils lay the Lord Vishnu. He was watched over by the mighty serpent. Everything was so peaceful and silent that Vishnu slept undisturbed by dreams or motion.
From the depths a humming sound began to tremble, "Om." It grew and spread, filling the emptiness and throbbing with energy. The night had ended. Vishnu awoke. As the dawn began to break, from Vishnu's navel grew a magnificent lotus flower. In the middle of the blossom sat Vishnu's servant, Brahma. He awaited the Lord's command.
Vishnu spoke to his servant: 'It is time to begin.'
Brahma bowed. Vishnu commanded: 'Create the world.'
A wind swept up the waters. Vishnu and the serpent vanished. Brahma remained in the lotus flower, floating and tossing on the sea. He lifted up his arms and calmed the wind and the ocean. Then Brahma split the lotus flower into three. He stretched one part into the heavens. He made another part into the earth. With the third part of the flower he created the skies.
The earth was bare. Brahma set to work. He created grass, flowers, trees and plants of all kinds. To these he gave feeling. Next he created the animals and the insects to live on the land. He made birds to fly in the air and many fish to swim in the sea. To all these creatures, he gave the senses of touch and smell. He gave them power to see, hear and move.
The world was soon bristling with life and the air was filled with the sounds of Brahma's creation.
From the depths a humming sound began to tremble, "Om." It grew and spread, filling the emptiness and throbbing with energy. The night had ended. Vishnu awoke. As the dawn began to break, from Vishnu's navel grew a magnificent lotus flower. In the middle of the blossom sat Vishnu's servant, Brahma. He awaited the Lord's command.
Vishnu spoke to his servant: 'It is time to begin.'
Brahma bowed. Vishnu commanded: 'Create the world.'
A wind swept up the waters. Vishnu and the serpent vanished. Brahma remained in the lotus flower, floating and tossing on the sea. He lifted up his arms and calmed the wind and the ocean. Then Brahma split the lotus flower into three. He stretched one part into the heavens. He made another part into the earth. With the third part of the flower he created the skies.
The earth was bare. Brahma set to work. He created grass, flowers, trees and plants of all kinds. To these he gave feeling. Next he created the animals and the insects to live on the land. He made birds to fly in the air and many fish to swim in the sea. To all these creatures, he gave the senses of touch and smell. He gave them power to see, hear and move.
The world was soon bristling with life and the air was filled with the sounds of Brahma's creation.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 1:50 pm to GeauxTigerTM
Materialism relies on the theory of evolution, which requires it's own faith. Evolution is replete with supposition, assumption, unsupported conclusions, falsehoods, and faith.
Obviously, the universe exists. I find it interesting that you demand proof of a religious explanation as to how it exists, but employ a faith based scientific explanation.
Obviously, the universe exists. I find it interesting that you demand proof of a religious explanation as to how it exists, but employ a faith based scientific explanation.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 1:51 pm to LucasP
quote:
All creations of the all mighty creator, so he can't be benevolent. Unless he's dumb and didn't mean to, which is my thesis.
Further proof:
Supporting evidence:
Posted on 12/28/17 at 1:55 pm to troyt37
quote:
Materialism relies on the theory of evolution, which requires it's own faith.
quote:
Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental aspects and consciousness, are results of material interactions.
I think you lack the vocabulary required for this kind of discussion. There's lots of good debates by educated theists on YouTube, check them out. They're pretty entertaining and may help you better understand your position.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 2:04 pm to troyt37
quote:
Materialism relies on the theory of evolution, which requires it's own faith. Evolution is replete with supposition, assumption, unsupported conclusions, falsehoods, and faith.
No...evolution does not require faith. I've been arguing about evolution for roughly 10 years on this forum, going all the way back to the Dover trials, and I can ASSURE YOU I won't be arguing with you about this. It's a pointless endeavor. Kudos for at least not using the made up creationist terms "micro" and "macro" evolution as if they have any scientific meanings.
quote:
Obviously, the universe exists. I find it interesting that you demand proof of a religious explanation as to how it exists, but employ a faith based scientific explanation.
Ugh...I'm not employing anything, William Lane Craig. I'm simply holding the default position that since we have no evidence AT ALL that there is anything outside of the materialistic universe that we can test for, that to then ADD a supernatural realm as an explanation (because you want to) is a superfluous move that does nothing at all to answer any actual questions we have as humans. In fact, all that move does is open up countless others for which, eventually, you must play the magic card and say, "Well...my position is faith based and therefore can not be tested that way. I win!"
My position is...Since you have yet to prove magic, your playing of the magic card invalidates your explanation. As such, since we know a materialist universe exists, the most logical position is to assume there is a materialistic answer. I don't know what that is, and I don't claim to know. As soon as a better explanation comes along, I'll be happy to assess it...and that goes for your position as well. As soon as you prove your thesis, I'll helplessly "believe" it. But the burden for that is, and always will be, on the person making the affirmative claim.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 2:09 pm to LucasP
quote:
I think you lack the vocabulary required for this kind of discussion. There's lots of good debates by educated theists on YouTube, check them out. They're pretty entertaining and may help you better understand your position.
That's almost a certainty, but I understand my position very well, regardless of the intricacies and nuances of every belief system. It's my understanding that materialists believe evolution to be the mechanism explaining the flora and fauna that surrounds us. If so, then the very basis of materialism is faith. The suppositions made by science regarding evolution are not testable, or repeatable. Therefore, having it as the basis for your belief system, puts faith as the foundation of that belief system.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 2:17 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
No...evolution does not require faith.
Maybe I don't have the vocabulary. At one point, there was no living thing. Earth was a hot rock, correct? Exactly how does a hot rock, in the presence of not a single living thing, bring forth life?
Posted on 12/28/17 at 2:18 pm to troyt37
quote:
Materialism relies on the theory of evolution, which requires it's own faith. Evolution is replete with supposition, assumption, unsupported conclusions, falsehoods, and faith.
What a load of absolute garbage.
One has actual evidence.
The other has none.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 2:20 pm to troyt37
quote:
Maybe I don't have the vocabulary. At one point, there was no living thing. Earth was a hot rock, correct? Exactly how does a hot rock, in the presence of not a single living thing, bring forth life?
That's Abiogenesis, a completely different Scientific Theory/Inquiry than Evolution.
Evolution does not seek the answers to the start. Only the process by which all life came from that start.
Posted on 12/28/17 at 2:20 pm to troyt37
quote:
It's my understanding that materialists believe evolution to be the mechanism explaining the flora and fauna that surrounds us. If so, then the very basis of materialism is faith. The suppositions made by science regarding evolution are not testable, or repeatable.
Well...that's simply false. I'd go through the trouble of explaining it, but I'm going to save you the trouble of heading over to some page like creation.org to copy and paste their argument for the differences between their own terms "micro" and "macro" evolution. I will copy and paste this for you from there though, and feel free to defend this as an intellectual position that enables one to have a discussion with another person.
quote:
(D) GENERAL
The following are held by members of the Boards (Directors) of Creation Ministries International to be either consistent with Scripture or implied by Scripture:
Scripture teaches a recent origin for man and the whole creation.
The days in Genesis do not correspond to geologic ages, but are six [6] consecutive twenty-four [24] hour days of Creation.
The Noachian Flood was a significant geological event and much (but not all) fossiliferous sediment originated at that time.
The ‘gap’ theory has no basis in Scripture. Nor has the day-age idea (so-called ‘progressive creation’), or the Framework Hypothesis or theistic evolution.
The view, commonly used to evade the implications or the authority of Biblical teaching, that knowledge and/or truth may be divided into ‘secular’ and ‘religious’, is rejected.
Facts are always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information. By definition, therefore, no interpretation of facts in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record.
LINK
No interpretation of a fact can be valid if it contradicts a belief ALREADY HELD? Wow...it's a belief system that starts off with ALL answers and simply looks for things to confirm them, and if they do not, they get tossed aside as fake. Essentially, it's anti-science.
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