re: Car and Driver: 2025 4Runner TrailHunter Test

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I know Toyotas will run forever, but their interiors are so damn bland.

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I'm not sure that the new turbo models will run forever. A lot of the turbocharged Toyota pickups are getting full engine swaps under warranty. The new Tacomas have also had a lot of issues as well. And absent of the possibility that this thing will run like an old school Toyota for 15-20 years......it gets really hard to overlook the weird design choices and bland interior. I do think they did an ace job with the Supra, but most Toyotas aren't really known for their design quality.

The car business is so weird right now.

Tesla is the most valuable car company, and it's an American brand that didn't really exist 30 years ago. They sell on design efficiency, performance, and the fact that they are electric cars with a full network of superchargers to support them. The Model Y outsells the Camry and Corolla in many markets, which is super impressive. These things moved to progressive leaning car buyers as a left wing status symbol for years. Then their visionary founder came out of the closet as moderate and now they all hate him.....and now Tesla is selling cars to normal people.

Cadillac is making better performance sedans than BMW, but nobody wants them because the market that made the E34 and E39 BMW sports sedans popular are now a bunch of old farts that drive SUVs now. Cadillac's electric models are incredible and surprisingly popular but only their urban/suburban dealers are able to move them. The only Cadillac that sells at every dealer is the Escalade - a model that didn't exist 30 years ago.

BMW is making some of the ugliest, most unreliable vehicles on the planet right now with designs that are even more strange than the Bangle era. Assembly and build quality is incredible but the parts and powertrains are horrific. This is another brand whose mechanical quality delivery was top notch when that was important but simply can't deliver the same result in the 2020s. They are far from the "ultimate driving machine" now.

Mercedes has gone full bling - an area where Cadillac was 30 years ago. They sell entirely on status and "look at me" factor. It's the antithesis of the bulletproof W126 and W124 models of the 1980s that made the Mercedes products true standouts in the automotive world. But it works for them I guess.

Hyundai and Kia are doing incredible things and using their massive size to their advantage. They compete in almost every market segment now except hyper-performance cars and traditional pickups. Almost all of their American market vehicles are built in the southern US. Nobody would have thought that these two would be alternatives to VW or Nissan in the American market in the 1990s, but that's where they are now. I keep waiting for them to come out with a real pickup truck - I'm sure the first one will be weird AF, but they'd eventually become a big player in that space.

Ford and Chevrolet don't even bother with affordable sedans. They've not only canceled their popular entry level sedans like the Cavalier and Focus, but they don't even make the Impala or Taurus anymore either. The Malibu is still around for another few months. Probably because younger Americans that would buy affordable cars are all broke. Chevrolet and Ford only make SUVs and trucks and they do those pretty well, but they are super vulnerable to an economic downturn since their vehicles now costs to darn much.

Nissan is in worse shape in the US than Mazda was in the 1990s, and Mazda is making legitimately compelling products right now. After relying on CVT's that ruined their reputation and letting the French make corporate decisions - Nissan uses sketchy lending practices to sell cars to people who can't/won't take care of anything. They committed to going full EV, then uncommitted. But by then they canceled their Titan pickup truck and are just not a real alternative to Honda or Toyota anymore.

Buick was kicking arse in the early 2010s with the very stylish Enclave and LaCrosse. At one point, Buick buyers were the wealthiest and most likely to pay cash than the buyers of any other domestic brand. Buick today is unfortunately just GM's "Chinese" brand. For some reason they want to go full electric and have also abandoned the sedans that the older, wealthier buyers preferred. Many GMC dealers are dropping the Buick franchise as a result. They also don't see the point of having two SUV brands under the same roof.

Jaguar doesn't make anything anymore.

Mitsubishi is on life support since Nissan sells more vehicles to that audience than they do.

Toyota is doing a great job, but their primary selling point was durability and longevity. They sold cars to people who didn't concern themselves with blingy styling. In the 1990s, Toyota and Lexus knew that their product's quality would make the cars stand out. They have lost their way, but not fully. When they focus on their core values, they make incredible, reliable vehicles like the Camry, Prius, and Corolla. When they try to be American or German - they come out with problematic and weird looking things like the Tundra, Sequoia, etc. I wish they'd forget about the giant blingy grills or high tech powerplants and just stick to their core values.

Fun fact, I actually made this meme, posted it to all the 4Runner Facebook groups and r/4Runner not expecting it to go viral for the 6th Gen like it did, I probably should've watermarked that one.

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you can count on the 5th Gen getting you there and back for many trouble-free miles/years at a modest price. We currently intend to keep ours for the long haul. They took all of those qualities that people loved and threw them in the trash. Now it's just another over-teched, overcomplicated, overpriced SUV that still doesn't get that great of mileage with crappy packaging for the hybrid/turbo crap.

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You hit the nail on the head here. 4Runner buyers are a unique breed. They want simplicity and long term durability. That's why the 4Runner always cost more than the Xterra, Trailbazers, and Explorers in the old days when they all competed. The 4Runner buyers wanted longevity and durability that was not really available anywhere else.

The only way the new 6th gen 4Runner will work for that audience is if this core design remains static for years and it proves reliable. Only then will the 6th gen be adopted by the traditional 4Runner clientele.

That's sort of what happened with the 5th gen. The first few years it was out....the darn thing didn't sell very well. Maybe it was a timing/recession related issue, but a lot of people were angry that it dropped the V8 from the 4th gen. It was criticized for having been "cheapened".

They updated the 5th gen design in 2013 or 2014 and dropped the 4 cylinder - it is a widely loved vehicle now despite the lack of a V8. You see a wide variety of people driving them today. Many of them can afford bigger, more blingy vehicles but choose to stick with a simple, reliable truck-based SUV. That's the traditional Toyota formula. The platform also supported unique, specialty models like the TRD Pro very well. It was excellent off road and aftermarket parts were widely available for it. So the Bro-Dozer crowed respected and appreciated it along with the "Toyota Millionaire" crowd that simply buy them and keep them stock for 20 years.

Right now the 4th gen isn't appreciated as much as the 3rd or 5th gen despite being the only one to offer a V8. That may be how the 6th gen goes after a few years and a mild refresh in the styling. It has to prove itself as reliable.

You've managed to offend ( accurately) 2 of the biggest brands in America.

Well done, sir.

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The 4Runner has always been endearing to 4Runner enthusiast because of it's simplicity. We, any many others, bought a 4Runner knowing it's not the fastest, not the most fuel efficient, not the most overloaded with tech and massive screens, but you can count on the 5th Gen getting you there and back for many trouble-free miles/years at a modest price. We currently intend to keep ours for the long haul. They took all of those qualities that people loved and threw them in the trash. Now it's just another over-teched, overcomplicated, overpriced SUV that still doesn't get that great of mileage with crappy packaging for the hybrid/turbo crap.

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I'm sure that the 4th gen and 5th gen 4Runners will eventually wear out one day.......by then the 6th gen will have been updated and the 7th gen may be on its way.

Toyota has some time to figure out the packaging and styling oddities with the new one. Most 4Runner owners aren't the type to rush out and buy something because it's more stylish or offers better tech.

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member12

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Good summary by a poster who follows the industry closely. The only quibble I would have is that Nissan's real fall began when they got all jingoistic with Ghosn and tried to put him in jail. Nissan/Renault was working better than anyone would have predicted prior to that.

It's typical of the industry though that companies do their best when there is a Force of Nature in the c-suite, from Henry Ford and Alfred Sloan to Marchionne, Mullaley, and Ghosn.

Fantastic take....and yes on BMW abysmal reliability. The reason I was at the Toyota dealership is because said kid's N55 engine randomly seized last week- car has been fully maintained, not tracked, and all highway miles.

It honestly was the greatest car I ever drove 335i MSport with a 6 speed. But not when the engine can't make it over 100k.