re: Can you teach a child morality without religion?

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Even then I would argue karma could used to explain that theres a natural order or balance to life and that if you stray too far to one side or the other you will upset that balance. Does that imply a spiritual presence?

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Where does the "natural order" arise from? It assumes that there are things which are meant to be or there is a standard of rightness. Where does the standard come from?

If you are a random collection of atoms in space, a pure accident of happenstance, a temporary nothing on the blip of time, how is there a natural order to things? Why was Hitler wrong? Why isn't might right?

The logical conclusion from such a belief is nihilism. Nietzsche followed that rabbit hole of nihilism to its logical conclusion and ended his life as a madman.

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You do have to believe in a higher power to believe in the concept of karma at an individual level.

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You are right, you don't. There is no logical basis for such a belief, but you can hold that belief nonetheless.

Some of the most moral people in my life are Atheists.

I know this because they keep telling me how moral they are.

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Where does the "natural order" arise from? It assumes that there are things which are meant to be or there is a standard of rightness. Where does the standard come from?

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The creative intelligence behind all life in the universe.

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I am not advocating for the presence or absence of god. I am simply saying that morality could be taught as a balance of life, and that this balance often has an impact on the future of that person.

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The question is can you teach morality without religion, or more specifically, is there a basis for morality if there is no higher power?

I have yet to hear anything convincing affirming that it is logical from this crowd. Homeostasis? Sounds kind of squishy as a logical idea.

Balance of life is a sticky concept... which life? Are animals included in that? Bacteria?

Why should your life be more valuable than say a blue whales? If you try to kill an animal I deem important, do I have a moral right based on your worldview to kill that person?

I believe there are downsides to basing morality within religion. The first is the impetus of divine punishment. The whole "God is watching" thing. It creates a false motivator. So now the child is doing something nice because of fear of retribution and not because he's come to understand that it's the "right" thing. The second, as you brought up, is forgiveness. Especially as a Catholic. Why should I live a moral life if I can simply confess and be absolved? That sounds like a recipe for sociopathy.

The basis of morality is empathy, which is also the foundational tenet of Christianity. But it's not mutually exclusive to religion by any means.

So far the only thing that has changed is my Christmas card list, you devil worshiper.

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Why was Hitler wrong?

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The results speak for themselves in my eyes. He had every advantage to stay in power for a longgg time and still managed to mess it up. He found out what happens when you stray too far.

I think the better question would be given all of the evil in the world, how is it a balance even exists? Some would argue that its because of some form of spirituality, some would say that theres a natural balance of good/evil in every person, and if you stray too far from that you will get pulled back in by society.

Salmon, you answered my question truthfully...

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Hitler wasn't necessarily wrong.

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That is the logical conclusion of someone who takes the atheistic worldview seriously. It is a tragic take from my worldview, but it is the correct conclusion from your worldview.

The reason I didn't answer your question is I asked the question originally, and you didn't answer it.

I am happy to answer your question...

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are Nazis thriving right now?

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If your question is, "Is the Nazi government in power and ruling the world?" Of course it isn't. Had they developed the atomic bomb in time the answer might be yes.

If your question is, "Is our world susceptible to going down morally depraved roads if it follows similar humanistic strains of thoughts as the Nazis and Communists did?" Absolutely.

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and lets be honest, you are not going to be convinced

so we can do this for 20 more pages, but in the end, none of us will probably change our positions

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That is fair... but I don't make the argument just to debate you. Those who are on the fence and read these posts can decide for themselves and weigh the arguments.

So far you have agreed with my main point that based on an atheistic worldview, Nazis and the Holocaust was not a moral catastrophe. If your worldview cannot pin the Nazi movement and the Holocaust as objectively morally wrong, then you have proven my very point.

If your worldview does not condemn the Nazi movement and the Holocaust, it is stripped of the ability to make any absolute moral judgements.