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re: Can you teach a child morality without religion?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:44 am to MLCLyons
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:44 am to MLCLyons
quote:
I've been to church maybe 10 times in my life and wan't raised to follow any religion but I still consider myself to be a moral person.
The question isn't can atheists be moral... it's what is the basis for absolute morality if there is no higher power?
2
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:45 am to colorchangintiger
quote:
Never made a mistake or have a single regret
you use Apple products, brah
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:46 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
it's what is the basis for absolute morality if there is no higher power?
decreasing disruption in society
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:47 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
multiple cultures across the ancient world seemed to derive the same core concepts of societal interaction (which became law, which became moral codes through the state-sponsored religion)
So our morality comes from the law?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:51 am to LandPhil
I haven't read all 13 pages, but I say yes. I know plenty of people who don't practice any religion, but have good morals.
However, I don't believe you can be a practicing atheist and have good morals. Those people are the worst.
However, I don't believe you can be a practicing atheist and have good morals. Those people are the worst.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:52 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
So our morality comes from the law?
historically, yes
i'm not talking about logical derivation here.
i'm talking about actual implementation and use of the force of the state, historically. what we consider morality comes from societal trial and error
religion is just a reinforcement mechanism of these concepts
one of the hallmarks of western civilization was the separation of these concepts, at least ideologically (it went back and forth over history until taking a hard turn about 500 years ago)
while good for furthering our societal belief systems, it makes these arguments a bit more difficult for people to conceptualize. this applies both to the religious (who give religion too much credit) and atheists (who act like religion has no value)
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:52 am to SlowFlowPro
Thanks for your answer SlowFlowPro to my question...
Using that standard, let's throw out an example. An aboriginal group in the rain forest decides that all outsiders should be killed and eaten when they enter their territory. A small child from another tribe enters. Is it morally wrong for them to kill and eat that child? Why or why not based on your standard?
quote:
what is the basis for absolute morality if there is no higher power?
quote:
decreasing disruption in society
Using that standard, let's throw out an example. An aboriginal group in the rain forest decides that all outsiders should be killed and eaten when they enter their territory. A small child from another tribe enters. Is it morally wrong for them to kill and eat that child? Why or why not based on your standard?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:53 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
you use Apple products, brah
Actually went as an Apple douche last night.Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:56 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
An aboriginal group in the rain forest decides that all outsiders should be killed and eaten when they enter their territory. A small child from another tribe enters. Is it morally wrong for them to kill and eat that child?
yes
there is a reason why they're aboriginal and haven't even formed the concept of real society. their concept of society is deficient and so antiquated that it's clearly not the best path. we humans had this argument 10-12k years ago when the concept of society was created and we stopped living like those aboriginals
my argument is that our concept of morality is based in certain behavioral codes developed through societal trial and error. your example shows why pre-societal living is compatible with our ideals. since our ideals are formed through morality, and morality is derived from trial and error of society, giving an example of a group rejecting society furthers my point.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 9:56 am to colorchangintiger
as a side note, i just got a cheapo Moto G6 and that's one of my biggest issues with the apple econsystem. even a cheap iphone is like $500+
Posted on 11/1/18 at 10:02 am to LandPhil
You probably don't realize the extent to which your morality is the product of the Jude-Christian shaping of all of western civilization and beyond. But the short answer to your writ-small question in OP is, of course.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 10:06 am to LandPhil
quote:
I say yes. Morality provides a distinction between right and wrong, and that line doesn’t muddy just because someone is an atheist. You don’t need a higher power to know that treating other people the way you would like to be treated is a fairly decent way to go about your daily life.
Are you replacing an organized religion with something else to worship (even if subconsciously)? Does your striving for a moral code become something that you worship (meaning that your intentions and moral code are strictly based to honor that ideal)?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 10:08 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
their concept of society is deficient and so antiquated that it's clearly not the best path.
So because a society is not using the latest technology or educated in Western thought, they cannot make sound moral judgements?
But you can because you are a part of modern society? Who are you to judge the morals of this aboriginal group?
You stated earlier that morality comes from the law... Can you give me an example where morality was derived from the law?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 10:10 am to LandPhil
No, you can’t but religion means different things to different people. That part is important to point out. You don’t have to believe that there is a man in the sky.
Who is to say what is decent without a “higher” power or guiding set of rules? Most of what constitutes decent in our society is based on Judeo-Christian beliefs by the way, even among atheists.
quote:
You don’t need a higher power to know that treating other people the way you would like to be treated is a fairly decent way to go about your daily life.
Who is to say what is decent without a “higher” power or guiding set of rules? Most of what constitutes decent in our society is based on Judeo-Christian beliefs by the way, even among atheists.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 10:14 am to CivilTiger83
quote:
So because a society is not using the latest technology or educated in Western thought, they cannot make sound moral judgements?
they can make "moral judgments"
unless they're the lucky on the level of a Poewrball winner, they will be wrong (at least to us and how we perceive morality, which i'll be prideful and claim the high ground without issue)
quote:
But you can because you are a part of modern society?
yes, especially considering that we're talking about the societal concept of morality. the primitives may not even be able to form the concept
and if you're trying to turn this into a morally relative argument, that dog don't hunt. we are talking about "morality" and my argument is that it's formed through societal trial and error. by its very definition, society is required and will be superior to anything close to our concept of morality found outside of society.
summary: Rousseau is an a-hole and the noble savage doesn't exist and is one of the worst concepts ever created.
quote:
Can you give me an example where morality was derived from the law?
the right side
Posted on 11/1/18 at 11:27 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
3. America
I’m not going to get into the other 2 because history is blurry. So let’s talk about America.
You are claiming that’s america wasn’t founded based on Judeo-Christian moral principles?
Posted on 11/1/18 at 11:29 am to MLCLyons
quote:
I've been to church maybe 10 times in my life and wan't raised to follow any religion but I still consider myself to be a moral person
This is the worst possible argument I’ve heard. You are a product of society regardless of your personal beliefs. You didn’t develop in a vacuum. A society which was founded on certain moral principles based on a Judeo-Christian worldview.
You can’t disconnect yourself from this structure that has molded you.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 11:33 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
quote:
So our morality comes from the law?
historically, yes
What? You have this completely backwards. Our morality doesn't come from the law, Our laws are based on our shared morality.
Quick example. Slavery. WHen the prevailing morality in this country changed so did the law. Not the other way around.
Posted on 11/1/18 at 11:37 am to SlowFlowPro
Let’s do a thought experiment.
Let’s assume society has developed the perfect set of moral principles. PERFECT.
Is this society more or less stable if those principles are believed to be given from god vs from man?
I’m not saying god has to exist. Just that people believe god exists.
Let’s assume society has developed the perfect set of moral principles. PERFECT.
Is this society more or less stable if those principles are believed to be given from god vs from man?
I’m not saying god has to exist. Just that people believe god exists.
This post was edited on 11/1/18 at 11:38 am
Posted on 11/1/18 at 11:40 am to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
You are claiming that’s america wasn’t founded based on Judeo-Christian moral principles?
our government? no, it wasn't
western? yes
English? yes
Lockean? yes
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