re: Biker Shootout at the Twin Peaks in Waco, TX

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I'm not spending all day looking for it. All I found were criminal forfeitures which require a conviction and civil forfeitures that require a trial. Saw nothing that was just automatic and says LE can just take whatever they want whenever they want without any cause but I assume from the responses that it exists.

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Here...

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Civil forfeiture in the United States, sometimes called civil judicial forfeiture,[1] is a controversial legal process in which law enforcement officers take assets from persons suspected of involvement with crime or illegal activity without necessarily charging the owners with wrongdoing. While civil procedure, as opposed to criminal procedure, generally involves a dispute between two private citizens, civil forfeiture involves a dispute between law enforcement and a thing such as a gold crucifix, a pile of cash, a house or sailboat, such that the thing is suspected of being involved in a crime. Law enforcement take the thing; to get it back, owners must prove that it was not involved in criminal activity. Sometimes it can mean a threat to seize property as well as the act of seizure itself.[2]

Proponents see civil forfeiture as a powerful tool to thwart criminal organizations involved in the illegal drug trade, with $12 billion annual profits,[3] since it allows authorities to seize cash and other assets resulting from narcotics trafficking. Proponents argue that it is an efficient method since it allows law enforcement agencies to use these seized proceeds to further battle illegal activity, that is, directly converting bad things to good purposes by harming criminals economically while helping law enforcement financially. Critics complain that innocent owners become entangled in the process such that their right to property is violated, with few legal protections and due process rules to protect them in situations where they are presumed guilty instead of being presumed innocent. Further, critics argue that the incentives lead to corruption and law enforcement misbehavior. There is consensus that abuses have happened but disagreement about their extent as well as whether the overall benefits to society are worth the cost of the instances of abuse.

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so basically the cops can "suspect" you're using your house, car, whatever they want in an "illegal" manner and they can take it without ever having to give a shred of evidence of you doing anything or even charging you with anything. They don't have to prove jack shite and your stuff is now theirs. And to get it back you have to prove your innocence instead of them having to prove your guilt.

And BTW, it's a booming industry the cops & Feds have going. In fact it's DOUBLED in the last decade or so....





Here's some examples...

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Mandrel Stuart was not charged with a crime and there was no evidence of illegal activity but police seized his money because they assumed it was drug-related:[23]
Mandrel Stuart and his girlfriend were on a date driving on Interstate 66 ... The traffic stop on that balmy afternoon in August 2012 was the beginning of a dizzying encounter that would leave Stuart shaken and wondering whether he had been singled out because he was black and had a police record. Over the next two hours, he would be detained without charges, handcuffed and taken to a nearby police station ... stripped of $17,550 in cash ... earned through ... a small barbecue restaurant ... he was going to use the money that night for supplies and equipment.

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Javier Gonzalez was carrying $10,000 cash in a briefcase and got pulled over in Texas; deputies handed Gonzalez a waiver, that if he signed over the money and did not claim it later, he would not be arrested, but if he refused to sign the waiver, Gonzalez would be arrested for money-laundering.[14] Gonzalez signed the waiver wondering if the officers were real "officers of law" and wondering if he got robbed, but later sued the county, which lost, and returned his cash plus paid him $110,000 in damages plus attorney's fees.

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Matt Lee of Clare, Michigan was driving to California with $2,500 cash when pulled over by police in Nevada, who seized almost all of the cash under suspicion that it was a "drug run"; Lee hired an attorney who took half of his fee, leaving Lee with only $1130 remaining.[23]
I just couldn’t believe that police could do that to anyone ... It’s like they are at war with innocent people.

—Matt Lee, interviewed in the Washington Post, 2013[23]

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Tan Nguyen. In 2008, a federal judge ordered $20,000 returned to a man after police seized the money during a traffic stop in Nebraska, after reviewing a recording of the seizure in which a sheriff's deputy suggested that we "take his money and, um, count it as a drug seizure."[12] Tan Nguyen's $50,000 was confiscated by police during a traffic stop, and the county agreed to return the funds after a legal challenge

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In May 2010 a couple was driving from New York to Florida and they were stopped by police because of a cracked windshield.[23] During questioning, the officer decided that $32,000 cash in the van was "probably involved in criminal or drug-related activity", seized it, shared it with federal authorities under equitable sharing.[23] The victim hired a lawyer to get back the seized money who urged settling for half of the seized amount, and after the lawyer's fees, the victim only got back $7,000

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LINK

So yes, they can take from you whatever they want, whenever they want, and you MIGHT get it, or some of it, back if you're lucky.

And for those keeping score at home, I'll just leave this here....

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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Constitution of the United States of America, Amendment IV
Created: September 25, 1789
Ratified: December 15, 1791

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LINK

Definitely not an actual interview but an article that pieced together some statements on social media by some of the waitresses.

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Yeah, that's what I found too. Thanks Darth. Don't get me wrong, I have major issues with forfeiture laws. It just sounded like it was automatic the way some were talking.

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Well. that's the thing, it is "automatic" if the cops want it. They can pull you over on your way home and seize from you whatever they want. Say you have a legally owned pistol and are fully legal and within your rights to posses that pistol on you in your vehicle. All they have to do is "suspect" you've used it in some illegal manner. They can take your pistol without even so much as giving you a traffic ticket. After that the burden is on you to prove that you've not done anything illegal with that pistol.

Or let's say you've looked on Craigslist and found a item you want to buy and the seller wants cash only. We'll use a used truck for example. This used truck is $5,000 and that's what you've got in your wallet as you go to buy this truck. If you get pulled over the cops can take that $5,000 and they don't need a shred of evidence to do so. All they have to do is "suspect" you got the money illegally or intend on using the money illegally. And to get it back you've got to prove them wrong. Once again, good luck.

LINK

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CRIMINAL MEETING’ OF BIKERS IN WACO WAS ACTUALLY ORGANIZED POLITICAL GATHERING

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Despite the characterization by police that the afternoon gathering at a Twin Peaks restaurant in Waco, Texas that led to Sunday’s bloody shooting incident was a gathering of criminal biker gangs with violent intent, the meeting appears to have been a legitimate, organized gathering of motorcycle riders meeting to discuss political issues.

The group that met was the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents (CoC&I) and a look at that group’s website and history gives a very different impression of the group’s purpose and goals than what has been said repeatedly by Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton.

Swanton has been a central media figure, conducting several press conferences since shootings that left nine dead and dozens injured happened on Sunday. Swanton’s statements have been echoed by the media, creating an image of a get together of thugs converging on Twin Peaks in an event obviously fraught with danger that authorities tried desperately to stop until they were foiled by the uncooperative restaurant owner.

An AP report on Tuesday gives what has been the now-standard media narrative:

Five gangs had gathered at the restaurant as part of a meeting to settle differences over turf and recruitment. Prior meetings had been held at the restaurant, and managers there had dismissed police concerns over the gatherings, he said.

“They were not here to drink and eat barbecue,” Swanton said. “They came here with violence in mind.”

The “gathering of criminal bikers” story was even used to justify the $1 million bail that the 170 arrested bikers were each handed. From the same AP report:

McLennan County Justice of the Peace W.H. Peterson set bond at $1 million for each suspect. He defended the high amount, citing the violence that quickly unfolded in a shopping market busy with a lunchtime crowd.

“We have nine people dead, because these people wanted to come down and what? Drink? Party?” Peterson said. “I thought it was appropriate.”

Despite those claims by Texas officials of drinking, partying and violence in mind, the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents website and other information give every impression that the group’s meeting on that Sunday was legitimate.

This does not mean that groups or individuals who participated in CoC&I meeting don’t have criminal connections. Some see the CoC&I as a way for clubs like the Bandidos to gain legitimacy, an assessment shared by the Texas Department of Public Safety’s Gang Threat Assessment from 2014:

Formed in the 1960s, the Bandidos Outlaw Motorcycle Gang (Bandidos OMG) conducts its illegal activities as covertly as possible and avoids high-profile activities such as drive-by shootings that many street gangs tend to commit. However, members are not covert about making their presence known by wearing the gang colors, insignia, and riding in large groups. They seek to turn public sentiment in their favor by organizing frequent charity runs. Bandidos are likely to focus on recruiting new members with no criminal history.

However, it’s not clear that everyone who attended the CoC&I meeting had criminal connections. As the Gang Threat Assessment report pointed out, even the Bandidos have recruited members with no criminal history in an attempt to clean up there reputation. As a comment on the biker site Aging Rebel suggests:

If thirty guys were fighting who were the other 140 that were arrested? The Christian Ministries, the Veterans Clubs, and everyone else who attended a COC meeting aimed at keeping bikers safe, biker legislation, and scheduling biker events? So now your local motorcycle minister is locked up on a 1 million dollar bond.

A look at the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents website and events calendar does show a group that’s focused on legislative issues and elections.

The CoC&I site has an entire page dedicated to National, State and Local Happenings with links to various political calls to action and events.

That page features a photo of a U.S. Marine standing at attention with a group of bikers and a photo an eagle over an American flag with the motto “Don’t tread on me. I refuse to allow my civil servant to run my life.”

A look at the group’s events calendar shows that the Twin Peaks meeting was listed on the Calendar as a “Region 1 Texas COC&I Meeting”; one of a number of meeting that happen in every part of Texas on a regular basis.

Other events on the Calendar show an actual legislative purpose. For example, on April 22nd at 7am the Calendar lists a public hearing on legislation:

The Motorcycle Safety Fund Bill (SB754) will be brought to the floor for public hearing in the Transportation Committee.

Paul and Jude will be testifying in support of the bill and we need as many people as possible to attend the hearing to support our community spokesmen, Senator Watson and show we are unified in seeing SB754 passed.

Later in April was a two day “Texas COC&I Christian Unity Event”, described as:

This event is open to everyone. We want to include Christians from all traditional MC’s and not just the Christian MC’s and MM’s.

You are welcome even if you are not a Christian, but the event will be Christian by nature.

Looking beyond the group’s website, eyewitness reports are beginning to paint a very different picture than that the official version from the Waco police.

Halfway through this WacoTrib.com story comes an account from someone who was at event that claims the biker’s political event was interrupted by uninvited bikers from the Cossacks gang.:

Steve Cochran, a national bikers’ rights advocate from Waco who witnessed the melee, blamed the incident entirely on the Cossacks. Cochran, who is a founder of the Waco chapter of the Sons of the South, is an official with the U.S. Defenders Task Force, a legislative group affiliated with the Texas Confederacy of Clubs and Independents.

He arrived at Twin Peaks on Sunday to set up a sound system for the COC&I meeting, only to find that the violence already had started.

Bandidos members were to be part of the meeting, which was to focus on legislative issues common to all bikers, Cochran said. He said police gave no indication to him or other COC&I members that their lives might be in danger.

“These meetings have gone on for 20 years, and we’ve gone all these years without a single incident until Sunday,” he said.

Other reports say that about 60 Cossacks arrived at the meeting and a list of those killed indicates that only one of the victims was from Waco. Tuesday, Breitbart Texas reported exclusively on indications on social media of aggressive moves by the Cossacks, including “transfers” of bikers into Texas.

The emerging picture of what really happened on Sunday in Waco raises some doubts about the initial police explanation of the incident as well as their suggested remedy. For example, Waco spokesman Swanton has repeated blamed the restaurant for not refusing to host the event.

However, the very political nature of the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents and its website raise troubling First Amendment questions about the police trying to pressure a business to shut down a lawful political meeting that had never led to problems previously, regardless of the people at that meeting.

Texas Law Enforcement has had a difficult job dealing with biker gangs. One frustration is that some groups like the Bandidos combine legitimate elements (with charity rides) with criminal (like meth dealing.)

Follow Lee Stranahan on Twitter: @Stranahan

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Love that my posts on Civil Forfeiture laws gets downvoted but no actual rebuttals

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It's just a little red arrow, no reason to get you knickers in a bunch over it

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Selling meth to raise money for the cancer kids seems legit.

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Before I reformed, I used to donate part of my dirty money to charity, karma bro karma

Darth:

It will be interesting to see whether FedGov's DoJ focuses any interest in charging any of the arrested bikers under RICO.

If the Bandidos are truly an organized criminal entity, I would expect DoJ to eviscerate them with RICO prosecutions.

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Darth:

It will be interesting to see whether FedGov's DoJ focuses any interest in charging any of the arrested bikers under RICO.

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If I had to guess, I'd say they're going to hammer everyone. Whether or not they actually committed a crime will not matter.

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If the Bandidos are truly an organized criminal entity, I would expect DoJ to eviscerate them with RICO prosecutions.

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I have no doubt they're putting everything together right now.

BTW, the Aging Rebel has a new post on this story.

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For the last four days a glib, specious, Waco police sergeant named Patrick Swanton has been defining the reality of what happened last Sunday in and near a Texas Region One Confederation of Clubs and Independents meeting. The meeting was in a lewdly named restaurant called Twin Peaks in a shopping center called the Central Texas Marketplace near the collision of two freeways in Waco, Texas.

“I’ve see this before,” William L. Dulaney, an interesting man who has been a soldier, a scholar and a motorcycle outlaw, said this morning about the gelded press in Waco. “The police are controlling the narrative. They have everybody who might contradict what they are saying locked up. The press believes everything the police are saying. I’ve seen this before. I’ve never seen it this bad.”

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Obligatory "Darth is greasy, unbathed and wears patches on his clothes" comment before I get to my questions.

The AP has gotten a video showing some of the events. It has partially described the video but has refused to release it so that everyone can see it and make up their own minds.

Was this video one of the nine from inside the restaurant?

Was it one from one of the dash cams in the dozen or so LEO vehicles that were surely focused in that direction?

Was it one of probably twenty other cameras that caught parts of the action from other businesses?

Did any of the LEO's have personal cameras on?

I am going to take a leap of faith here and guess that thirty or so patrons of the shopping center were shooting cell phone video of the fight. Probably sideways)

So my question is, with almost a hundred possible videos, how come none are on Youtube?

Some of the independent witnesses have surely been on TV before, telling how the tornado that wrecked their trailer sounded like a freight train. Why is there not a peep from any of them? They love the camera and feeling of celebrity. Where are they?

And last, sorry Darth for joining the cool kids feeding frenzy with the first sentence. It was a little fun though, especially once I added the small "I see what you did there" thing.