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Message
re: AP: Parents begged cops to enter school as shooting unfolded. Cops refused
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:46 am to UndercoverBryologist
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:46 am to UndercoverBryologist
quote:
Standard operating procedure for many decades in a hostage situation was to wait out the situation and not to press the hostage taker into doing something crazy.
That wasn't a hostage situation, dumbass.
1
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:47 am to Indefatigable
quote:
Correct. And that information came out in the investigation. It will here too if that was in fact the case.
I’m just saying that it doesn’t HAVE to be that way, and there’s no reason not to wait for something more official before everyone flips out about police cowardice.
I mean the timeline I am speaking to is the timeline the state police officer gave in his media interview yesterday. No doubt there is additional info that is needed/will come out, but what we have so far is not adding up, and based on history, I'm not sure why the default should be that when the smell test is indicating something is off, we should be defaulting to making excuses on their behalf and assuming a government body with a pretty sketchy track record, including in situations like this, just had to have done all in their power as you and some others have put forth.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:49 am to Vamos Brandonos
quote:
Average cops aren't trained to assault a building and hunt active shooters.
actually they are. all cops go through active shooter training. it's a requisite training. if there's an active shooter, you don't stand by. you go inside the building and eliminate the threat. all protocols changed after columbine.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:49 am to Indefatigable
quote:
before everyone flips out about police cowardice.
I think its a good reminder that if you're ever in a place where the SHTF, nobody is immediately going to help you except you, and it might be a good while before anybody does show up to help you.
While many cops are combat vets, many are also overweight women who've never fired a gun outside of qualifying. As a whole they certainly aren't a top tier squad of door kickers. Expecting a few local deputies to barge into some hot stuff is IMO expecting too much from what you have.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:49 am to monsterballads
quote:
the protocols for an active shooter are to go in and eliminate the threat as quickly as possible.
everything changed after columbine
I guess my subjective view is that the threat was somewhat unknown. Sure, pretty safe to assume single shooter actively firing in the classroom, but the situation inside still uncertain - are children or obstacles at the doors? Is the shooter protected/position reinforced? To go into that blind is reckless for both LEOs and any living hostages inside. For all LEOs knew, shooter could’ve been firing rounds indiscriminately into the ceiling.
It’s awful, all around. But putting blood on the hands of LEOs is unjustified, based on what info is available to us currently. No doubt, some of these responders will struggle to cope with the possibility they could’ve saved more lives by doing any number of things differently.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:50 am to grizzlylongcut
quote:
That wasn't a hostage situation, dumbass.
And if it was, I guess one is to believe that SOP if the hostage taker begins summarily executing all the hostages is to....just let him.
I'm more inclined to believe that if there is an out for how police handled this, it will probably be that the additional cops that arrived on the scene rather late/and or received some bad intel and took defensive action as opposed to SOP for an active shooter.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 7:53 am
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:52 am to AmosMosesAndTwins
quote:
I guess my subjective view is that the threat was somewhat unknown. Sure, pretty safe to assume single shooter actively firing in the classroom, but the situation inside still uncertain - are children or obstacles at the doors? Is the shooter protected/position reinforced? To go into that blind is reckless for both LEOs and any living hostages inside. For all LEOs knew, shooter could’ve been firing rounds indiscriminately into the ceiling.
*Hears rifle fire followed by children screaming, wailing, and whimpering
*More rifle fire, more children screaming, wailing, and whimpering
The cops outside: "Maybe he's just shooting into the ceiling"
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:53 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Fricking useless idiots. They just want their pensions
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:54 am to Indefatigable
quote:
There are no actual details. Just random videos and statements from emotional witnesses.
we have a timeline where police arrived on scene and almost and hour and a half later the threat is eliminated by a border patrol agent.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:55 am to Mr Breeze
quote:
I'll wait until the proper after action report is done by competent authorities before implying that responding LEO's were cowards.
Yeah, because cops NEVER cover up their own frick ups in aars.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:55 am to AmosMosesAndTwins
quote:
I guess my subjective view is that the threat was somewhat unknown. Sure, pretty safe to assume single shooter actively firing in the classroom, but the situation inside still uncertain - are children or obstacles at the doors? Is the shooter protected/position reinforced? To go into that blind is reckless for both LEOs and any living hostages inside. For all LEOs knew, shooter could’ve been firing rounds indiscriminately into the ceiling.
It’s awful, all around. But putting blood on the hands of LEOs is unjustified, based on what info is available to us currently. No doubt, some of these responders will struggle to cope with the possibility they could’ve saved more lives by doing any number of things differently.
The whole argument for putting cops in schools is for protection and prevention of shootings like this. It’s literally the main argument. And it’s an argument that isn’t waiting on the “full story” to come out either.
If they have no duty to protect and have potentially in more than one school shooting instance just stood by while it happened then what the frick are they there for? Window dressing?
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 7:57 am
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:56 am to AmosMosesAndTwins
quote:
I guess my subjective view is that the threat was somewhat unknown.
in active shooter training, they teach that when you confirm gunfire, you go in and eliminate the threat. period.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:57 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
It may be the case that other cops didn't go in, but I read somewhere that one cop went in, against department policy that states they must wait for backup, and is the hero that put down the a-hole shooter.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:58 am to monsterballads
quote:
in active shooter training, they teach that when you confirm gunfire, you go in and eliminate the threat. period.
Be that as it may, the going in is what I see as the unknown. Interested to hear the first hand accounts from LEOs as they trickle in.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:58 am to monsterballads
quote:
we have a timeline where police arrived on scene and almost and hour and a half later the threat is eliminated by a border patrol agent.
He exchanged fire with two officers in the school before he ever went into the classroom.
There are more details than you are suggesting.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 7:59 am to IAmNERD
quote:
against department policy
I would love to hear more about their department policy telling them to squat outside while there's an active shooter.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:00 am to monsterballads
quote:
quote:
Average cops aren't trained to assault a building and hunt active shooters.
actually they are. all cops go through active shooter training. it's a requisite training. if there's an active shooter, you don't stand by. you go inside the building and eliminate the threat. all protocols changed after columbine.
There should be a standard training for all police type folks across the country for some sort of basic swat/breach in situations like this. Standardize it so there can be a protocol also standard across the country. The first 4-5 that show up can form a team and know that they all have the same training/understanding of how it will be done, doesn't matter if it's local police, sheriff deputy, and/or state police in the mix. That and every officer across the country should have a vest and helmet in their squad car. Seems like the above would be relatively cheap to implement and way better than what is currently being done.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 8:07 am
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:03 am to Huey Lewis
quote:
*Hears rifle fire followed by children screaming, wailing, and whimpering
*More rifle fire, more children screaming, wailing, and whimpering
The cops outside: "Maybe he's just shooting into the ceiling"
Yep, this is where things just arent adding up currently.
SOP for an actve shooter is to go toward the gunfire.
A police officer(maybe two) was on the scene and engaged with the active shooter, the officer was injured. We don't know how severe, but no reports he died or is in critical condition.
But maybe we assume he was incapacitated, so when additional officers arrived all they had to go on was the Grandma's 911 call(which again, did indicate dangerous shooter), which then begs the question, how long did it take additional officers to arrive on the scene?
Engaging in gunfire, falling back to a classroom, locking himself inside, Killing 19 children and teachers(one that apparently put up a fight), and no additional cops made it to the scene within that time? Were not informed of an active shooter? So therefore decided on a containment strategy outside despite potential more children in the school?
To me that is the one rationalization I currently have for why the cops might not have engaged, which, isnt exactly exonerating, still raises a ton of questions.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:04 am to Bronc
quote:
Engaging in gunfire, falling back to a classroom, locking himself inside, Killing 19 children and teachers
This set of things could have happened in 30 seconds.
Posted on 5/26/22 at 8:05 am to Steadyhands
quote:
There should be a standard training for all police type folks across the country for some sort of basic swat/breach in situations like this.
There is, and it’s been said by multiple posters that know what they’re talking about in this thread.
First officers on scene, you go in for an active shooter. You don’t wait for four or five more officers, you go in straight to the sound of gunfire. You don’t stop for the wounded, you don’t stop to help civilians flee. You go to stop the threat.
Columbine changed everything. You don’t stop to gather info and you don’t wait for more backup. You go in if you hear gunfire.
This post was edited on 5/26/22 at 8:07 am
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