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Posted on 4/21/10 at 3:52 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Loomis has been acting like he doesn't really expect us to get Sharper back. If we are moving Jenkins to safety, then drafting a CB isn't such a bad move, though I'd prefer to wait a couple of rounds.
Anyone remember that we signed Chris McAllister and Mike McKenzie off the street last year because of injuries? Do you remember what Torrance looked like in coverage?
We could definitely use a quality corner.
Very good point GOP. In fact, it would not surprise me if they have CB rated higher than DE now, not that they won't draft a DE. I do expect them to draft either a CB, then to move MJ to FS. Or draft a FS and keep MJ at CB. It all depends on who is rated higher on their board at the time they pick, FS or CB. This is the kind of flexibility Loomis demands of his draft plan and achieves more times than not. I'm all for it as well myself.
Posted on 4/21/10 at 4:05 pm to TexasSinger
i still can't see them drafting a cb first round.. even if they moved jenkins to fs. who knows..
This post was edited on 4/23/10 at 10:46 am
Posted on 4/21/10 at 5:39 pm to LSU1215
quote:
He has us selecting with the 32. New Orleans
Devin McCourty, CB, Rutgers
If I am not mistaken, that is also who Mel Kiper had us selecting in his latest mock draft.
Posted on 4/21/10 at 6:08 pm to tigerguy121
same guy who picked us 5-11 last year
Posted on 4/21/10 at 7:00 pm to PokerPlayingTiger
quote:
If I am not mistaken, that is also who Mel Kiper had us selecting in his latest mock draft
Kiper has us taking Jerry Hughes and McShay has us taking Darryl Washington.
Posted on 4/21/10 at 8:36 pm to LSU1215
terrible analysis.
what's up w/ that dude's hair .. did he get struck by lightning?
what's up w/ that dude's hair .. did he get struck by lightning?
Posted on 4/21/10 at 8:47 pm to noladan
At first glance it does seem wacky. Behind the scenes though it may not be as far fetched as appearing initially.
The Sharper decision is huge. They may be resigned to him not being re-signed.
That could be either by the take on Sharper towards the Saints or a deliberate decision from the organization on him.
If a no-go on Sharper, Jenkins to FS is the most obvious move. Fine. But as Chad pointed out, the health record of Porter-Greer-gay hasn't been shown to be something to bet on. Myself, I think Gay is even borderline in performance even as a nickel.
So, could corner be a high priority push position? I wouldn't go that far without knowing if any such DB scenarios have indeed been taken on by the FO. BUT IF, such a stance has been adopted then taking a clear BPA CB would be neither a shock or a bad move. It's never purely BPA (take #42 ranked WR Benn over #44 ranked Daryl Washington). Second half 1st Rd types like McCourty or Kyle Wilson over Washington though is clearly BPA value AND IF they are forecasting the Shaper outcome negatively supported even more.
How bout another angle?
Same negative outlook... Nate Allen FS at #32. Pure plug and play at that position. let the abundance of riches at corner then just play out. Best man (or staying the healthiest)wins. Lord, with the Jason Davids, Fred Thomas' after over the hill, Keyou Cravers, Tesucky Jones' etc that we have had to cope with I can handle being strong and deep in the back 4 (or 5).
The Sharper decision is huge. They may be resigned to him not being re-signed.
That could be either by the take on Sharper towards the Saints or a deliberate decision from the organization on him. If a no-go on Sharper, Jenkins to FS is the most obvious move. Fine. But as Chad pointed out, the health record of Porter-Greer-gay hasn't been shown to be something to bet on. Myself, I think Gay is even borderline in performance even as a nickel.
So, could corner be a high priority push position? I wouldn't go that far without knowing if any such DB scenarios have indeed been taken on by the FO. BUT IF, such a stance has been adopted then taking a clear BPA CB would be neither a shock or a bad move. It's never purely BPA (take #42 ranked WR Benn over #44 ranked Daryl Washington). Second half 1st Rd types like McCourty or Kyle Wilson over Washington though is clearly BPA value AND IF they are forecasting the Shaper outcome negatively supported even more.
How bout another angle?
Same negative outlook... Nate Allen FS at #32. Pure plug and play at that position. let the abundance of riches at corner then just play out. Best man (or staying the healthiest)wins. Lord, with the Jason Davids, Fred Thomas' after over the hill, Keyou Cravers, Tesucky Jones' etc that we have had to cope with I can handle being strong and deep in the back 4 (or 5).
Posted on 4/21/10 at 10:39 pm to blueslover
In my opinion, a first round pick at any position other than QB is a failure if the pick is not a quality starter by the end of his first year. By that measure, we haven't been that successful the last four years: only Ellis fits the bill, as Bush, Meachem, and Jenkins failed to achieve that standard. (We actually went 2 for 2 in the second round in the last four years, as both Harper and Porter were quality starters in their rookie seasons.)
Based on that theory, you should ordinarily only draft a player in the first round if he has a chance to start as a rookie, or if the presumed starter is old or in the last year of a contract and is likely to depart after that. We made exceptions for players like Deuce and Meachem because the front office had them rated significantly higher than the guys on the board at other positions. It wasn't just that they were BPA, it was that they were BPA by a mile.
So, I feel certain that we won't be looking to draft a CB in the first round. If there is a LB or DT whom we have rated nearly the same, we're going to go with the LB or DT. We could say the same thing about TE, RB, etc. By the same token, though, the front office has shown that we shouldn't be surprised if they draft a CB, RB, or TE whom they have rated significantly higher than the best LB or DT.
Based on that theory, you should ordinarily only draft a player in the first round if he has a chance to start as a rookie, or if the presumed starter is old or in the last year of a contract and is likely to depart after that. We made exceptions for players like Deuce and Meachem because the front office had them rated significantly higher than the guys on the board at other positions. It wasn't just that they were BPA, it was that they were BPA by a mile.
So, I feel certain that we won't be looking to draft a CB in the first round. If there is a LB or DT whom we have rated nearly the same, we're going to go with the LB or DT. We could say the same thing about TE, RB, etc. By the same token, though, the front office has shown that we shouldn't be surprised if they draft a CB, RB, or TE whom they have rated significantly higher than the best LB or DT.
Posted on 4/21/10 at 11:01 pm to GOP_Tiger
I think we are saying essentially the same thing.
This part though-
I don't think any NFL team can do that unless you stay bad enough to pick in the top ten each year like the Rams. There's a world of difference of players in tiers, not necessarily by rounds. I'd guess Top Ten pick push 75-90% as starters. Picks 22-32 50% as starters is prolly close.
The more accurate standard I think most NFL teams would adhere to would be more like-
a first round pick at any position other than QB is a failure if the pick is not a quality starter by the end of his third year.
This part though-
quote:
a first round pick at any position other than QB is a failure if the pick is not a quality starter by the end of his first year
I don't think any NFL team can do that unless you stay bad enough to pick in the top ten each year like the Rams. There's a world of difference of players in tiers, not necessarily by rounds. I'd guess Top Ten pick push 75-90% as starters. Picks 22-32 50% as starters is prolly close.
The more accurate standard I think most NFL teams would adhere to would be more like-
a first round pick at any position other than QB is a failure if the pick is not a quality starter by the end of his third year.
Posted on 4/21/10 at 11:09 pm to blueslover
Failure is a relative term. I mean it in the sense of "below average" or "not as good as you hoped" -- not "totally sucks."
Even by your standard, though, Bush and Meachem are "failures."
Even by your standard, though, Bush and Meachem are "failures."
Posted on 4/21/10 at 11:47 pm to tigerguy121
quote:
DT's like Cody
Yeah thats all we need is another d-lineman with major weight issues! We need to leave Cody on the board. Did you see this guy he is beyond fat, and has no will power to at least be in decent shape for the combine!
Posted on 4/22/10 at 9:02 am to GOP_Tiger
I got the latest edition of SI in teh mail yesterday. I only subscribe because I ordered the saints superbowl deal. I typically dont read it, but decided to since it was the draft preview edition. King said the saints have two true needs. Dline and corner. wtf. THere is no way he spent any time on our pick. plain ignorance. It makes me really reconsider paying attention to any of these guys.
Posted on 4/22/10 at 9:08 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
So, I feel certain that we won't be looking to draft a CB in the first round. If there is a LB or DT whom we have rated nearly the same, we're going to go with the LB or DT. We could say the same thing about TE, RB, etc. By the same token, though, the front office has shown that we shouldn't be surprised if they draft a CB, RB, or TE whom they have rated significantly higher than the best LB or DT.
I couldn't agree more.
Nothing would shock me, but you have to think if there's a DT or OLB on the board that they have rated anywhere near the top of what's available at 32 they'll go in that direction.
Posted on 4/22/10 at 9:33 am to noladan
I know there is no such thing as a sure thing in the draft, but I say if there is a guy with the intangibles of a D. Revis at CB you take him.
thats the only reason its not a "crazy" pick. with that said... we need a OLB
thats the only reason its not a "crazy" pick. with that said... we need a OLB
Posted on 4/22/10 at 9:37 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
In my opinion, a first round pick at any position other than QB is a failure if the pick is not a quality starter by the end of his first year.
That's just dumb and short sighted. If you have a gaping hole at a position, then obviously he can become a starter. IF you have a super bowl championship team with very few holes and aren't willing to reach for a player out of pure sake of need and abandon your principles of success of drafting best available at any number of targeted spots... then i don't think you are doing yourself any favors.
Jennkins was drafted last year as a project and to be fill in as a contributing player at his most comfortable position of corner of the bat. He provided critical role play in special teams and in the secondary at times but in no means is it necessary to have this "starter" rule by the end of the season. Deuce didn't do shite his rookie season.
Posted on 4/22/10 at 10:08 am to Chad504boy
Chad, Tracy Porter was a 2nd round pick and started his rookie season and was a better corner his rookie season than Jenkins was last year. I think you would agree that was a much better pick. Do you really think that the front office drafted Jenkins without hoping that he would compete for a starting spot? He wasn't even our #3 corner. It's not like he was fantastic and couldn't get on the field because of Greer and Porter. You don't draft players in the first round hoping to develop them for a year or two while they contribute on special teams -- that's what you hope to get out of a 4th or 5th round pick.
Posted on 4/22/10 at 10:14 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Tracy Porter was a 2nd round pick and started his rookie season and was a better corner his rookie season than Jenkins was last year.
Porter was an under the radar gem with great speed and technique that translated immediately to the NFL.
quote:
I think you would agree that was a much better pick.
For immediate impact and value, probably but that doesn't mean you have to choose one or the other. Jenkins pick will be determined within the next year or so of what position he'll be utilized in and how he makes the transition. I never liked Jenkins as a corner in drafting him but I think he could project well as a FS and could be an excellent player after an adjustment period. To be determined...
quote:
You don't draft players in the first round hoping to develop them for a year or two while they contribute on special teams
I don't agree with this. It depends on the potential of the player, how desperate a team is and so on. Too many shades of grey. Saints have shown that to satisfy their immediate needs... it doesn't necessarily have to come with the highest of their picks like you are pointing out. If the Saints feel like they can pick a project player with great talent and upside and satisfy their immediately impact needs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, who are we to say they are wrong. They are showing us it works...
Posted on 4/22/10 at 11:03 am to Chad504boy
quote:Are you really saying that you would draft Bush, Meachem, and Jenkins in the same places all over again? You aren't really that dumb, are you?
They are showing us it works...
What has worked for the Saints has been getting excellent value after the 1st round of the draft or undrafted, players like:
Roman Harper 2nd
Jahri Evans 4th
Marques Colston 7th
Jermon Bushrod 4th
Carl Nicks 5th
Tracy Porter 2nd
Thomas Morstead 5th
Pierre Thomas UFA
Jonathan Casillas UFA
What has also "worked" for the Saints has been outstanding evaluation of free agents that we have brought in who have contributed or players that we have traded for:
Jeremy Shockey
Jonathan Vilma
Remi Ayodele
Jeff Charleston
Heath Evans
Randall Gay
Jonathan Goodwin
Jason Kyle
Bobby McCray
Courtney Roby
David Thomas
Scott Fujita
Scott Shanle
Darren Sharper
You really want to say that our first round picks the last four years are "working" for us? That's like saying that our run defense is "working" for us. Just because you can overcome something doesn't mean that it was good.
Posted on 4/22/10 at 11:13 am to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Are you really saying that you would draft Bush, Meachem, and Jenkins in the same places all over again? You aren't really that dumb, are you?
You're right. In 2006, we should have drafted Jahri Evans with the 2nd overall selection and Marques Colston with our 2nd round pick.
In 2007 we should have drafted Pierre Thomas instead of Robert Meachem.
The book isn't over with the 2009 selection but to be honest with you, i was hugely disappointed with this selection when it happened. I was on the Clay Matthews bandwagon.
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