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Message
re: How would you guys feel about Ryan Shazier?
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:14 pm to KG5989
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:14 pm to KG5989
We played more 4-3 than 3-4, and we still didn't play much of that.
Whatever we played, it was almost always 4 down linemen.
All this 3-4 nonsense needs to stop because we didn't run a 3-4.
And this isn't a shot at you. It's the "experts" and many posters on here just repeating it. It's like everyone heard Payton say we were going to run a 3-4 but then no one actually bothered to watch the games or look at the snap counts and see how untrue that was.
Whatever we played, it was almost always 4 down linemen.
All this 3-4 nonsense needs to stop because we didn't run a 3-4.
And this isn't a shot at you. It's the "experts" and many posters on here just repeating it. It's like everyone heard Payton say we were going to run a 3-4 but then no one actually bothered to watch the games or look at the snap counts and see how untrue that was.
This post was edited on 4/21/14 at 11:16 pm
1
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:19 pm to BigBrod81
quote:
It only matters where the individual organizations have him ranked. These mocks are meaningless.
True, I'd just expect to get that universal momentum you hear about some guys at this point of the game. Moses is really really good.
The only OL better than him in the ACC this year is Brandon Thomas, and he was working his way up to a first round pick before his devastating injury.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:28 pm to bonethug0108
Dude its still a 3-4 scheme. Rob Ryan has always run the 3-4. I mean its what hes known for. When it looks like a 4-3, its an 'under' package and an OLB plays on the line like a DE(JG). But its still a 3-4 based D. Because we typically only have 3 DL in the game with Hicks, Jordan, Bunkley / Jenkins. Galette walks up and looks like hes playing at the DE spot, but its the 3-4 'Jack' LB spot.
So do we have a 4 man front a good bit? yes. But 1 of the edge players is a 3-4OLB. Which is why I said Shazier isnt a good fit for a 3-4 scheme. Because he would have to play on the line a good bit, and I dont think he will be good at that. But its still considered the OLB spot. I mean Clay Matthews isnt considered a DE. Neither is Vonn Miller. They are 3-4 OLBs.
And, actually, most of the time we ran a 3-3-5.
Edit: Go look at the Saints depth chart. Its 3 DL, 4 LBs, 4 DBs. A 3-4.
And I get what you are saying and know you werent just calling me out on something.
But, even though it looks like a 4 man front its still a 3-4.This post was edited on 4/21/14 at 11:37 pm
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:35 pm to FootballNostradamus
quote:
Moses is really really good.
I wouldn't be shocked if Moses is one of those players who gets chosen ahead of where many mocks have him. With an emphasis on outside pass rushers in the league right now, OT is a valuable position. His value is probably higher then where the mocks have him. It all depends on where organizations have him in comparison to the other top tackles in the draft.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:37 pm to KG5989
Galette had a hand in the dirt way more often than not and rushed the passer on passing plays 480 out of 522 snaps(92%).
I don't care what he is called. He played defensive end.
And in Oakland Ryan used 4-3 base(more because he was forced to by the head coach/GM, but he's familiar with it).
We ran 4-2-5. Disagree if you want but that's what I saw.
And even IF we ran 3-3-5(if Galette was an OLB) it's still a sub and the guys would still be in a 4-2-5 stance with a safety in the box. So that's still 2 guys acting as actual LBs(unless you count the safety who's playing a hybrid role) with the 3rd rushing 92% of the time.
In short, you're idea that Shazier doesn't fit a 3-4 OLB doesn't matter because he wouldn't be in that kind of role.
I don't care what he is called. He played defensive end.
And in Oakland Ryan used 4-3 base(more because he was forced to by the head coach/GM, but he's familiar with it).
We ran 4-2-5. Disagree if you want but that's what I saw.
And even IF we ran 3-3-5(if Galette was an OLB) it's still a sub and the guys would still be in a 4-2-5 stance with a safety in the box. So that's still 2 guys acting as actual LBs(unless you count the safety who's playing a hybrid role) with the 3rd rushing 92% of the time.
In short, you're idea that Shazier doesn't fit a 3-4 OLB doesn't matter because he wouldn't be in that kind of role.
This post was edited on 4/21/14 at 11:40 pm
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:42 pm to KG5989
quote:
When it looks like a 4-3, its an 'under' package and an OLB plays on the line like a DE(JG).
Here is an overhead picture of exactly what you are talking about in terms of the "under" package.
quote:
The Saints have seven men in the box in a 3-4 under. The reason that this is an “under” 3-4 is because the down linemen are shading the weak side.
This post was edited on 4/21/14 at 11:45 pm
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:43 pm to Patrick O Rly
Shazier is growing on me, I wouldn't mind him.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:46 pm to bonethug0108
Yeah his hand was in the dirt, and yeah he rushes the passer. But thats the role the 'Jack' LB has. Almost all 3-4 D is played with an OLB having a hand in the dirt. Think Clay Matthews, Aldon Smith, Justin Houston, Terrell Suggs, Robert Mathis, etc.
What you saw and what it actually is are 2 diff things. And even though you may disagree with it, Ill call it what our DC calls it: a 3-4 under defensive scheme.
Theres no 'if' about Galette playing OLB. Thats what he is classified by our team and the league. a 3-4 OLB. His role is similar to a DE. But its a 3-4 OLB.
And the main difference is that we only have 1 true DT in the game, typically Bunkley or Jenkins.
Dont get mad at me for saying its a 3-4. Get mad at Rob Ryan.
Its his system and his scheme, and its a 3-4 according to him.
And if Shazier wouldnt be playing the pass rush spot, he would pretty much be like an MLB. Which is not his skill set. He has trouble taking on blockers and getting off them
BigBrod... solid pic
What you saw and what it actually is are 2 diff things. And even though you may disagree with it, Ill call it what our DC calls it: a 3-4 under defensive scheme.
Theres no 'if' about Galette playing OLB. Thats what he is classified by our team and the league. a 3-4 OLB. His role is similar to a DE. But its a 3-4 OLB.
And the main difference is that we only have 1 true DT in the game, typically Bunkley or Jenkins.
Dont get mad at me for saying its a 3-4. Get mad at Rob Ryan.
Its his system and his scheme, and its a 3-4 according to him. And if Shazier wouldnt be playing the pass rush spot, he would pretty much be like an MLB. Which is not his skill set. He has trouble taking on blockers and getting off them
BigBrod... solid pic
This post was edited on 4/21/14 at 11:53 pm
Posted on 4/22/14 at 12:03 am to KG5989
quote:I see those guys playing a ton from a standing position as well(much more than Galette). They also are in coverage a bit more(15%, 14%, and 23% respectively compared to Galette's 8%).
Clay Matthews, Aldon Smith, Justin Houston
Mathis is a DE "converted" to "OLB" much like Galette. I can't speak to Suggs because honestly I've never really watched him(always watched Lewis closely when they played).
Regardless it's all semantics and the point is he plays with a hand down and rushes. That leaves 2 LBs that actually play LB. That would be one of the roles Shazier would fill, not Galette's.
So like I said, your original point is still invalid no matter how you call it.
And it still wouldn't be a 3-4. It would be a 3-3-5 that looks and plays like a 4-2-5.
So we still don't run 3-4 as our base. That's a misconception and I think almost every team would have the same issue. the 4-3 and 3-4 are no longer base defenses when you play in them less than half the time.
And I'm not mad at anyone.
This post was edited on 4/22/14 at 12:04 am
Posted on 4/22/14 at 12:29 am to bonethug0108
I gotcha
But yes we do But I do agree we are in our nickel package most of the time, which is bascially a 3-3-5.
And the biggest thing that tips you off that its a 3-4 is the fact that you only use 1 DT with 2 ILBs and their alignment.
And, in regards to a player playing with his hand in the dirt or standing up, its typically the players preference. Galette and Mathis are more familiar with their hand in the dirt because they were converted DEs, while Matthews and Houston played OLB and like to stand up. Its not really a big deal about having hand in the dirt or not.
And no my original post is not invalid. Shazier would be forced to play in the middle then, which is where he most def would not be good at. His best strength is his speed, and he wouldnt be able to use it in the middle. And 1 of the things he struggles at is his ability to take on and get off of blockers. He is best suited as an OLB in a true 4-3 scheme.
Plus, we have Butler coming back anyways. Rob Ryan has had a hard on for him since they were both in Dallas. He must be the real deal. Hopefully he comes back 100% and tears it up for us.
But Im done with this Rob Ryan is our DC and he runs a 3-4 so thats what I call it
But, in regards to Shazier, I wouldnt be mad if we drafted him. But I wouldnt be thrilled either. Just kinda blah about him.
quote:
So we still don't run 3-4 as our base.
But yes we do
But I do agree we are in our nickel package most of the time, which is bascially a 3-3-5. And the biggest thing that tips you off that its a 3-4 is the fact that you only use 1 DT with 2 ILBs and their alignment.
And, in regards to a player playing with his hand in the dirt or standing up, its typically the players preference. Galette and Mathis are more familiar with their hand in the dirt because they were converted DEs, while Matthews and Houston played OLB and like to stand up. Its not really a big deal about having hand in the dirt or not.
And no my original post is not invalid. Shazier would be forced to play in the middle then, which is where he most def would not be good at. His best strength is his speed, and he wouldnt be able to use it in the middle. And 1 of the things he struggles at is his ability to take on and get off of blockers. He is best suited as an OLB in a true 4-3 scheme.
Plus, we have Butler coming back anyways. Rob Ryan has had a hard on for him since they were both in Dallas. He must be the real deal. Hopefully he comes back 100% and tears it up for us.
But Im done with this
Rob Ryan is our DC and he runs a 3-4 so thats what I call it But, in regards to Shazier, I wouldnt be mad if we drafted him. But I wouldnt be thrilled either. Just kinda blah about him.
This post was edited on 4/22/14 at 12:36 am
Posted on 4/22/14 at 12:41 am to KG5989
quote:That's a different point, but this one is actually valid(to an extent).
And no my original post is not invalid. Shazier would be forced to play in the middle then, which is where he most def would not be good at. His best strength is his speed, and he wouldn't be able to use it in the middle. And 1 of the things he struggles at is his ability to take on and get off of blockers. He is best suited as an OLB in a true 4-3 scheme.
I think his speed would be a huge asset in blitzing and playing the pass, but I do agree we'd have to worry about teams running at him. But knowing Ryan he'd come up with ways to keep the Olinemen from getting free shots at him like with what happened in Ohio.
He was really out of place in Ohio's zone nickel scheme. It forced him to play against his strengths more often than not.
I do agree he'd be best suited to a 4-3 OLB role, and we could actually run a scheme like that with him with Shazier, Hawthorne, Butler, and Haralson all rotating at the OLB spots and Lofton in the middle. But that's only if they feel he'd be better than Bush, White, and Robinson on most downs.
Regardless, if we pick him Ryan will find a way to work him in and use him to his strengths and help hide his weaknesses. He did a great job of that with Harper when he was healthy.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 12:48 am to bonethug0108
I posted that a few posts ago.... it was an edit so I guess you missed it.
But yeah if we take him 27th, Ryan has a plan for him. I just dont really see what exactly that would be right now.
And I think we could get a guy that is a better fit for us later in the draft. There is always value in each round, just gotta find it.
Like you said, we have a lot of solid LBs on the team right now. Fairly deep. Only reason I could see us taking a LB in the 1st is if Mosley falls to us, or if hes a pass rushing type of LB like Anthony Barr. Mosley is just too good of a value pick to not take him and hes 1 of the best defensive players in the entire draft. Hes a top 15 player in the draft, just plays a position that could slip in the 1st round kinda like S. Not every team needs 1. And Anthony Barr would be a perfect fit in our D.
But yeah if we take him 27th, Ryan has a plan for him. I just dont really see what exactly that would be right now.
And I think we could get a guy that is a better fit for us later in the draft. There is always value in each round, just gotta find it.
Like you said, we have a lot of solid LBs on the team right now. Fairly deep. Only reason I could see us taking a LB in the 1st is if Mosley falls to us, or if hes a pass rushing type of LB like Anthony Barr. Mosley is just too good of a value pick to not take him and hes 1 of the best defensive players in the entire draft. Hes a top 15 player in the draft, just plays a position that could slip in the 1st round kinda like S. Not every team needs 1. And Anthony Barr would be a perfect fit in our D.
This post was edited on 4/22/14 at 12:53 am
Posted on 4/22/14 at 12:55 am to KG5989
quote:
LB like Anthony Barr.
Now this guy is a playmaker. I would love to have him if he falls to #27.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 3:15 am to BigBrod81
Not trying to ruin the 4-3 vs 3-4 vs 3-3-5 vs 4-2-5 parade, but in today's day and age of modern defenses the fronts tell you next to nothing about what sort of defense a team is playing.
The terms you need to look into (if you are truly curious about what we are doing defensively) are whether a team runs one-gap or two-gap principles. This is what truly defines the responsibilities of a defense. Traditionally, 4-3 fronts operated with one-gap principles and 3-4 fronts were created around two-gap principles. However, fronts have become so mixed these days you can't truly identify a defense by them.
Wade Phillips' defense presents a 3-4 look but executes out of a one-gap philosophy. Saban's defense, however, presents a 3-4 look but executes out of the traditional two-gap philosophy. Belichik has even created a hybrid system that presents a frontside two-gap foundation and a backside attacking one-gap system. We lean closer to Belichik's. We use Jordan and Hicks on the strongside at the point of attack to control blockers and primarily run one-gap principles to the weakside. This is one of the reasons you've seen us struggle, at times, against the zone read.
Here's a decent article if people want to read about it.
More Info
The terms you need to look into (if you are truly curious about what we are doing defensively) are whether a team runs one-gap or two-gap principles. This is what truly defines the responsibilities of a defense. Traditionally, 4-3 fronts operated with one-gap principles and 3-4 fronts were created around two-gap principles. However, fronts have become so mixed these days you can't truly identify a defense by them.
Wade Phillips' defense presents a 3-4 look but executes out of a one-gap philosophy. Saban's defense, however, presents a 3-4 look but executes out of the traditional two-gap philosophy. Belichik has even created a hybrid system that presents a frontside two-gap foundation and a backside attacking one-gap system. We lean closer to Belichik's. We use Jordan and Hicks on the strongside at the point of attack to control blockers and primarily run one-gap principles to the weakside. This is one of the reasons you've seen us struggle, at times, against the zone read.
Here's a decent article if people want to read about it.
More Info
Posted on 4/22/14 at 5:29 am to Patrick O Rly
Hey Paddy Cakes. I don't think there is much of a chance Blues links this thread.
Blues from what I can tell, paddy and Chaddy don't like you.
You are one of the more informative posters on here. Don't change a thing because of what Paddy says, please.
Blues from what I can tell, paddy and Chaddy don't like you.
You are one of the more informative posters on here. Don't change a thing because of what Paddy says, please.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 7:19 am to djrunner
No, I like blues. We just like to bust his balls on certain things.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 8:47 am to bonethug0108
quote:
In short, you're idea that Shazier doesn't fit a 3-4 OLB doesn't matter because he wouldn't be in that kind of role.
You're logic is based on last year's formations will be next year's formations even if personnel changes. Well last year's formations was based on because of personnel dealt with. It's a fluid situation and you're a rock at the bottom of the river watching the parade go by.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 8:48 am to djrunner
quote:
You are one of the more informative posters on here.
One can be very informed... but just informed in the wrong direction.
Posted on 4/22/14 at 9:25 am to Chad504boy
Like you said, the formulation we have is clearly about being flexible to what fits our players available at the current time.
We didn't have a true OLB outside Haralson, we played a 4-2-5 set a lot, 4-3 a lot, and not as much of a 3-4 as we wanted.
If we get a true OLB this year AND victor butler is healthy, we could see 3-4 more often and less of these 3 safety sets.
BPA defensively! all we need
We didn't have a true OLB outside Haralson, we played a 4-2-5 set a lot, 4-3 a lot, and not as much of a 3-4 as we wanted.
If we get a true OLB this year AND victor butler is healthy, we could see 3-4 more often and less of these 3 safety sets.
BPA defensively! all we need
Posted on 4/22/14 at 10:06 am to htran90
If people want so draft this guy and say we can only use him in coverage, and that he can't play every down, why not just take another safety?
sorry but you dont take a LB in the 1st round in hopes that can be a "coverage LB". Because if you can't do the other half of the job, you're pretty much worthless.
sorry but you dont take a LB in the 1st round in hopes that can be a "coverage LB". Because if you can't do the other half of the job, you're pretty much worthless.
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