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Message
Why not use Zion to space the floor by actually looking for him when he's spotting up
Posted on 4/2/24 at 8:23 am
Posted on 4/2/24 at 8:23 am
Bro has shot over 35% every year from high school to the NBA. Has always made the spot up jumpers when somebody looks for him, but the never do.
I've seen CJ dancing with the ball, Z sets a pick, defender sagging all the way past the ft line, Zion wide tf open for a catch and shoot, but CJ never even turns his head in Z's direction.
Same with BI, same with Naji. Jose is the only person on this team I've seen consistently LOOK for Z when he's open for 3. Most of the ball handlers on this team doesn't even look in his direction, abd it's really hurting this offense.
If I was Willie, we'd be working SPECIFICALLY on getting Zion a few spot up jumpers and using him to space the floor whenever BI and CJ wants to get the dancing.
Tf is wrong with this team? You struggle with space anytime someone other than Z has the ball, Z can actually shoot spot up 3's, but there is absolutely no effort to use this as a way to force defenses to close their box defense.
I've seen CJ dancing with the ball, Z sets a pick, defender sagging all the way past the ft line, Zion wide tf open for a catch and shoot, but CJ never even turns his head in Z's direction.
Same with BI, same with Naji. Jose is the only person on this team I've seen consistently LOOK for Z when he's open for 3. Most of the ball handlers on this team doesn't even look in his direction, abd it's really hurting this offense.
If I was Willie, we'd be working SPECIFICALLY on getting Zion a few spot up jumpers and using him to space the floor whenever BI and CJ wants to get the dancing.
Tf is wrong with this team? You struggle with space anytime someone other than Z has the ball, Z can actually shoot spot up 3's, but there is absolutely no effort to use this as a way to force defenses to close their box defense.
4
Posted on 4/2/24 at 8:28 am to MidWesttoNO
quote:
Why not use Zion to space the floor by actually looking for him when he's spotting up
I would accept him being able to do something other than dribble into 3 paint defenders and getting the ball taken away.
The Suns did nothing special defensively. They put 3 guys on the block waiting for Zion and dared someone to make an uncontested 3. If Zion had any kind of mid range, all of this "3 sets of eyes" backpedaling and contesting his layup would go away. Someone would have to come get him. And maybe the likes of CJ would look for him in these instances. But if you know he's just a few dribbles away from a turnover, why send it.
This post was edited on 4/2/24 at 8:30 am
Posted on 4/2/24 at 8:37 am to SaintEB
quote:
I would accept him being able to do something other than dribble into 3 paint defenders and getting the ball taken away.
The Suns did nothing special defensively. They put 3 guys on the block waiting for Zion and dared someone to make an uncontested 3. If Zion had any kind of mid range, all of this "3 sets of eyes" backpedaling and contesting his layup would go away. Someone would have to come get him. And maybe the likes of CJ would look for him in these instances. But if you know he's just a few dribbles away from a turnover, why send it.
Definitely. And the stop and pop middy would definitely help while he has the ball because defenders couldn't sag off as much. But this is more about when everyone else has the rock, because Z's man can ALWAYS play free safety as long as nobody even looks Zions way when he's open behind the line.
Just swinging him the ball would create rotation issues, they don't even as much as look in his direction if he's spot up. Not even a look bro lol. Even if he doesn't take the shot, it still forces defenders to rotate. But yet, nobody rotates the ball to Z abd this ish happens at least 6-10 times per game where Z is wide open and not even looked towards.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 8:39 am to MidWesttoNO
quote:
Even if he doesn't take the shot, it still forces defenders to rotate. But yet, nobody rotates the ball to Z abd this ish happens at least 6-10 times per game where Z is wide open and not even looked towards.
This is true. There are plenty of videos of him shooting corner 3s at practice but the ball never finds him in the corner during a game.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 8:55 am to MidWesttoNO
It's no different than when Giannis shoots a 3. It's a win for the defense everytime he does it, regardless if it goes in or not.
He could make 3 in a row and the defense still wouldn't give a shite.
I"m not disagreeing that he should take more 3's, i just don't think defenses are really going to change if he does. They'll let him shoot it.
I think he absolutely needs to take 3's from the top of the key. He needs to be able to set a pick and depending on how it's defended, roll to the goal or step back for the 3. There's no reason he can't hit 36% from the top of the key, and if he can take that shot 3-4 times a game i think it helps open things up in late game situations.
Both Jokic and Embiid take 3 3's a game.
If Zion is 2-3 from 3 in a game, especially if he just hit the 2 in the 2nd half, and we are in the closing minutes and he sets a pick and stays at the top of the key, i think the defense actually would close out on him. They'll never close out on him an any other situation, but if he's already hit 2 or 3, then i could see where it really helps him late in games. And if they don't close out on him and let him have it, then good, shoot it and make it if you're feeling it that day.
He has to evolve his game beyond his only take shots from 6' or less with 2 guys draped all over him every single time.
He could make 3 in a row and the defense still wouldn't give a shite.
I"m not disagreeing that he should take more 3's, i just don't think defenses are really going to change if he does. They'll let him shoot it.
I think he absolutely needs to take 3's from the top of the key. He needs to be able to set a pick and depending on how it's defended, roll to the goal or step back for the 3. There's no reason he can't hit 36% from the top of the key, and if he can take that shot 3-4 times a game i think it helps open things up in late game situations.
Both Jokic and Embiid take 3 3's a game.
If Zion is 2-3 from 3 in a game, especially if he just hit the 2 in the 2nd half, and we are in the closing minutes and he sets a pick and stays at the top of the key, i think the defense actually would close out on him. They'll never close out on him an any other situation, but if he's already hit 2 or 3, then i could see where it really helps him late in games. And if they don't close out on him and let him have it, then good, shoot it and make it if you're feeling it that day.
He has to evolve his game beyond his only take shots from 6' or less with 2 guys draped all over him every single time.
This post was edited on 4/2/24 at 8:57 am
Posted on 4/2/24 at 9:03 am to SaintEB
quote:
But if you know he's just a few dribbles away from a turnover, why send it.
Zion had 3 turnovers last night, the same as Herb and Naji. CJ scored 15 points on 17 shots. He might want to pass a little more.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 9:05 am to TeddyPadillac
Definitely agree with all of this. The thing with Giannis though, his shot is slow, ugly, and he's NEVER shot a reasonable % from there. It takes him time to load up the shot, helping the defense.
Zion has a beautiful set shot, can get it up quickly, and has always shot a reasonable % at every level of the sport, even hit 42% as a rookie.
Zion was always a player who can consistently make 3's, Giannis came into the league with an awful jumper, and still has an awful jumper.
Defenders probably wouldn't treat Zion how they were able to treat Giannis.
Zion has a beautiful set shot, can get it up quickly, and has always shot a reasonable % at every level of the sport, even hit 42% as a rookie.
Zion was always a player who can consistently make 3's, Giannis came into the league with an awful jumper, and still has an awful jumper.
Defenders probably wouldn't treat Zion how they were able to treat Giannis.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 9:06 am to SaintEB
quote:
If Zion had any kind of mid range, all of this "3 sets of eyes" backpedaling and contesting his layup would go away.
No it wouldn’t. Teams love when opponents take this mindset. The Suns will let Zion take middies all day because it’s an inefficient shot.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 9:08 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
It's no different than when Giannis shoots a 3. It's a win for the defense everytime he does it, regardless if it goes in or not.
He could make 3 in a row and the defense still wouldn't give a shite.
I"m not disagreeing that he should take more 3's, i just don't think defenses are really going to change if he does. They'll let him shoot it.
I think he absolutely needs to take 3's from the top of the key. He needs to be able to set a pick and depending on how it's defended, roll to the goal or step back for the 3. There's no reason he can't hit 36% from the top of the key, and if he can take that shot 3-4 times a game i think it helps open things up in late game situations.
Both Jokic and Embiid take 3 3's a game.
If Zion is 2-3 from 3 in a game, especially if he just hit the 2 in the 2nd half, and we are in the closing minutes and he sets a pick and stays at the top of the key, i think the defense actually would close out on him. They'll never close out on him an any other situation, but if he's already hit 2 or 3, then i could see where it really helps him late in games. And if they don't close out on him and let him have it, then good, shoot it and make it if you're feeling it that day.
He has to evolve his game beyond his only take shots from 6' or less with 2 guys draped all over him every single time.
100% agree. Even if defenses dont guard him out there he needs to take them. It will conserve his energy and lower the chance of injury. It takes a lot less energy and its a lot lower risk to take a 3 than to barrel into 3 defenders.
If his game doesnt evolve he'll be out of the league by 30. When his athleticism starts to go the drop off will be steep. He doesn't have the size and length of a Giannis to mitigate a drop off in athleticism
Posted on 4/2/24 at 9:13 am to NOFOX
quote:
No it wouldn’t. Teams love when opponents take this mindset. The Suns will let Zion take middies all day because it’s an inefficient shot.
Look I hate the midrange shot more than anyone but Zion needs to add something to his bag. He can't be a one trick pony his whole career.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 9:24 am to Balsamic_duck
I think he simply needs to learn how to probe the defense patiently at times, instead of always just barrelling towards the rim every time. Even that would be some evoluation to his game.
Just be more patient at times in the paint, and learn to hit an easy floater. He has such a quick first step and explosion he can fly by guys even when he's just 10' from the goal going slow. If they keep backing up, then hit that floater. He has such an awesome touch around the rim, there's no way he wouldn't hit that shot at over 65% when it's wide arse open from 8' out.
Imagine Zion getting the ball at the elbow and an elite rim runner setting a pick for him right there, and he comes off that pick with his defender behind him and the big left to decide if he wants to get in front of Zion or stop the lob. and if someone helps from the side then Trey or CJ or Herb is sitting in the corner to hit a wide open 3 that they'll hit at an elite rate.
Just be more patient at times in the paint, and learn to hit an easy floater. He has such a quick first step and explosion he can fly by guys even when he's just 10' from the goal going slow. If they keep backing up, then hit that floater. He has such an awesome touch around the rim, there's no way he wouldn't hit that shot at over 65% when it's wide arse open from 8' out.
Imagine Zion getting the ball at the elbow and an elite rim runner setting a pick for him right there, and he comes off that pick with his defender behind him and the big left to decide if he wants to get in front of Zion or stop the lob. and if someone helps from the side then Trey or CJ or Herb is sitting in the corner to hit a wide open 3 that they'll hit at an elite rate.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 11:05 am to NOFOX
quote:
Teams love when opponents take this mindset.
Unless its in his wheel house to do it and makes the consistently. Teams gameplan to take mid-range shooters away from their "spots". They also run shooter off the 3 pt line. If they are good at it, its in their bag, defenses do have to account for it.
You and the other poster are right about Giannis, and would be right about Zion at the 3 pt line. But if he had a consistent jumper, they wouldn't love him taking them, especially if they went in. They would have to account for it.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 11:06 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Just be more patient at times in the paint, and learn to hit an easy floater. He has such a quick first step and explosion he can fly by guys even when he's just 10' from the goal going slow. If they keep backing up, then hit that floater. He has such an awesome touch around the rim, there's no way he wouldn't hit that shot at over 65% when it's wide arse open from 8' out.
This works, and sort of what I meant by "mid-range". I'm not thinking a BI 15-17 footer. Just stop short of the "wall" being built and pop it.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 12:23 pm to SaintEB
quote:
The Suns did nothing special defensively
For sure, just don't understand what some folks see. This is how teams play the Pels. In games with a talent advantage, you get away with it, against serious teams not so much. Nurcic and everyone else are just going to park in the lane. No knock on Pels cornerstones but BI can't bust a blitz above the key and Zion isn't even defended above the key and that's your defacto points? Just get a point who can get two of the best finishers in the league easier looks.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 3:00 pm to MidWesttoNO
Didn't want to start a new thread so just posting here.
Just looking up some things. Zion's last 21 games, he's going for 25/7/6
I know it's not fair to judge him on 21 games to other on a full season but it just provides a little context on how well he's been playing.
All the players in the NBA averaging 25/7/6 this season:
Lebron
Jokic
Giannis
Luka
Then if you do 25/7/6 on at least 58.7% FG%:
Giannis
Not too shabby
Just looking up some things. Zion's last 21 games, he's going for 25/7/6
I know it's not fair to judge him on 21 games to other on a full season but it just provides a little context on how well he's been playing.
All the players in the NBA averaging 25/7/6 this season:
Lebron
Jokic
Giannis
Luka
Then if you do 25/7/6 on at least 58.7% FG%:
Giannis
Not too shabby
Posted on 4/2/24 at 3:40 pm to TeddyPadillac
He does not have the handles to probe the defense.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 3:47 pm to SaintEB
quote:
Unless its in his wheel house to do it and makes the consistently. Teams gameplan to take mid-range shooters away from their "spots". They also run shooter off the 3 pt line. If they are good at it, it’s in their bag, defenses do have to account for it.
They’re are maybe 10 players in the league that teams try to take away certain mid range shots: BI, Booker, Derozan, KD, Middleton. Teams want the vast majority of players to take midrange shots and run defenses to accomplish that.
quote:
But if he had a consistent jumper,
Look at CJ’s efficiency numbers this year. They have jumped considerably because he stopped taking mid range shots. CJ’s midrange was inefficient. Zion doesn’t have it in him to ever develop a better midrange than CJ. Zion’s midrange will be inefficient and you are delusional if you think teams will try to take that shot away instead of goading him into more of them.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 3:50 pm to hkc
quote:
He does not have the handles to probe the defense.
all great players have worked on different aspects of their game to be better players.
What has Zion gotten better at since entering the league 5 years ago?
He can dribble well enough, and that big fat arse he's got will prevent anyone from getting around him once he gets them on his hip.
I"m not saying probe the defense every time. BUt you can't do the same shite over and over and over again.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 3:58 pm to NOFOX
quote:
Look at CJ’s efficiency numbers this year. They have jumped considerably because he stopped taking mid range shots.
They jumped b/c he's in a role where he's no longer the #2 guy on the team, and is a clear #3, and is taking 3 less shots this year than he has over the last 8 years.
It's a lot easier to simply become more efficient when you're asked to do less creating and shoot more open 3's.
Trey's even more efficient than CJ.
And Herb's more efficient than both of them.
Doesn't mean any of them are better scorers than BI or Zion, or even that they are more efficient scorers than them, b/c they have completely different roles on this team.
Posted on 4/2/24 at 4:01 pm to TeddyPadillac
zion needs 29 to boost his ppg this year to 23.0.
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