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What's wrong with the starting lineup?
Posted on 1/2/18 at 10:54 am
Posted on 1/2/18 at 10:54 am
The five man unit of D.Cousins, A.Davis, J.Holiday, E.Moore, R.Rondo have the most minutes played of all 5 man unites and a NetRtg of 0.2
Is the problem Rondo tanking the defense, Moore not being a SF, or something else entirely?
Is the problem Rondo tanking the defense, Moore not being a SF, or something else entirely?
This post was edited on 1/2/18 at 10:56 am
10
Posted on 1/2/18 at 10:56 am to TigerinATL
All five are stuck out on the perimeter and they are lazy when they have to get back on defense
Posted on 1/2/18 at 11:02 am to TigerinATL
quote:
Rondo tanking the defense, Moore not being a SF
Add Boogie switching onto guards and you have 3 defensive liabilities on the court at one time along with poor transition defense. You also have 2 traditionally poor 3pt shooters in AD/Rondo and 2 streaky 3 pt shooters in Jrue/Boogie. Combine that with the defensive issues and they can give up runs quickly.
This post was edited on 1/2/18 at 11:03 am
Posted on 1/2/18 at 11:18 am to TigerinATL
My guess is that they are terrible together in stretches. Can you isolate the first few minutes of the third and the last few minutes of the 4th with that unit?
I would bet they are like a +9 in other parts of the game and a -8.8 in those stretches
They come out so sluggish in the second half and they play iso ball to end games
I would bet they are like a +9 in other parts of the game and a -8.8 in those stretches
They come out so sluggish in the second half and they play iso ball to end games
Posted on 1/2/18 at 11:30 am to Crewz
No, but I can isolate the NetRtg by quarter.
1st -2.7
2nd 12.7 (small sample 27 MPG)
3rd -3.4
4th 26.2 (even smaller sample 16 MPG)
Just looking at this I'd say outside of a few games where they kept them in during the 2nd and 4th because they were rolling, the starting lineup is just not very good. Maybe it's the best of a bunch of bad options, but they seem like they're a little more than a Solomon Hill short of being good.
1st -2.7
2nd 12.7 (small sample 27 MPG)
3rd -3.4
4th 26.2 (even smaller sample 16 MPG)
Just looking at this I'd say outside of a few games where they kept them in during the 2nd and 4th because they were rolling, the starting lineup is just not very good. Maybe it's the best of a bunch of bad options, but they seem like they're a little more than a Solomon Hill short of being good.
Posted on 1/2/18 at 11:52 am to TigerinATL
Boogie's inability to stay in the post coupled with our starting 3 being 6'4" 191 pounds
Posted on 1/2/18 at 12:21 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
but they seem like they're a little more than a Solomon Hill short of being good.
Putting Hill in the starting lineup lets you put Moore on the bench and fixes a lot of problems for this team.
Posted on 1/2/18 at 12:26 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
What's wrong with the starting lineup?
I think they are just losers trying to find their feet right now. Not in the derogatory sense of the word. I think expectations for perennial losers to figure out how to win in the NBA in less than half a season are unrealistic. When they click, they are nearly unstoppable. When they suck, they are unwatchable. They can't seem to weather the storm very well and when things get out of whack, they often times have trouble getting back into it. I look at the Knicks game and see some progress. Our shot wasn't falling, but we managed to put ourselves in a position where we should have won, something we haven't been able to do frequently when that 3 ball is ice cold.
Further, I don't think that the Pelicans taking the league lead in 3 pt % and then immediately going ice cold is a coincidence. Just points to our inexperience and inability to block out the noise. Hill may help some as he seems one of the higher IQ players on the team. I just don't know how throwing another 35% 3 pt shooter on the floor is going to affect things. It's not like we're getting blitzed by SFs every game right now, so it's a little unfair imo to start pinning the problems on Moore's size. Cousins and Rondo are bigger problems than the undersized Moore in the half court and our entire team sucks at getting back in transition consistently.
Posted on 1/2/18 at 12:33 pm to ShamelessPel
quote:
our entire team sucks at getting back in transition consistently.
Which Hill excelled at to the detriment of his own shot. Whether his defense offsets his offense is the million dollar question.
quote:
I just don't know how throwing another 35% 3 pt shooter on the floor is going to affect things
Hill is a good passer and he can get to the basket, he just can't finish unless he's open. His best games he drove and finished when the other team had no rim protection. I'm interested to see if cutting off of AD/DC gets him some easy layups that he actually finishes. I think there's potential for fit to make him a much better player than he actually is, kind of like how Moore is feasting on all of these open looks.
This post was edited on 1/2/18 at 12:38 pm
Posted on 1/2/18 at 1:09 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
Hill is a good passer and he can get to the basket, he just can't finish unless he's open
I like Hill a lot (outside of his contract obviously). I think he's one of the higher IQ players on this team. It's why I don't dread trying to incorporate a whole new player in February.
One facet I've found a little odd this year is I've seen Cousins hustle back and chase down some shots Lebron style in transition. I can't recall AD doing it once even though you'd think the situations would be reversed.
My biggest question is "will Rondo ramp up his defense in the playoffs?" Yes, we have to get there and hopefully not pull GSW or a healthy HOU.
I know it's a cop out to say we just don't know how to win. But we don't.
Posted on 1/2/18 at 1:19 pm to TigerinATL
No wing
Posted on 1/2/18 at 1:53 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
What's wrong with the starting lineup?
Alvin Gentry?
Posted on 1/2/18 at 1:59 pm to TigerinATL
I was just looking at all of our 5 man rotations and kind of stunned to see that we have not used this combo:
Boogie-AD-Miller-Moore-Jrue
I would think that they would at least play around with running horns with Jrue handling and Moore-Miller in the corners. I know we don't want Jrue as the point, but they do this with success with Dante instead of Miller.
Boogie-AD-Miller-Moore-Jrue
I would think that they would at least play around with running horns with Jrue handling and Moore-Miller in the corners. I know we don't want Jrue as the point, but they do this with success with Dante instead of Miller.
Posted on 1/2/18 at 4:28 pm to TigerinATL
I think Boogie playing point and jacking up threes or playing iso ball with AD in the corner with no one rebounding on offense is likely a problem.
Then being lazy on getting back on defense is the other part of that problem.
Then the coaching sums up those other two problems.
Then being lazy on getting back on defense is the other part of that problem.
Then the coaching sums up those other two problems.
Posted on 1/2/18 at 9:48 pm to TigerinATL
There's nobody to guard long wings, so while the 3 Guards rotate on other team's SFs, it creates a constant imbalance where opponents attack the rotating mismatch and score more easily.
Solo will solve all of our problems.
Solo will solve all of our problems.
Posted on 1/3/18 at 12:43 am to TigerinATL
I made a thread about this quoting a poster on Pelicans Report that spent a lot of time diving into this:
LINK /
I think it is as true today as it was a couple weeks ago.
- the lineup gives up a ton of offensive boards.
- it also does a very poor job at rebounding in general. I have to assume part of it is having three guards that aren’t really capable of boxing out well. That lack of size alone has to be a problem.
- It is producing the second worst three point defense in the league while on the floor.
- It’s function is to basically outscore the other team because overall defense is bad, so when the unit can’t get out hot, which is most nights, we seemingly get into enormous holes that we spend the rest of the game climbing out of.
- part of the numbers were also just a product of the schedule. Which the poster speculated and given the net rating has improved from a -6.7 to what it is now, sort of validates that hypothesis.
I still would honestly like to see Miller starting simply for the data. Or at least have that unit used more to expand the sample size. Definition of insanity and all that. We don’t have Hill back yet and don’t seem imminent to be making a trade for a three and D wing, so why not try it? The sample size of that unit is still small, but what do we have to lose when what we currently have isn’t really working?
As a side note, one thing I have grown tired of with Gentry is the tendency to to see things that are broke and think they don’t need fixing. What is going on now with this starting unit reminds of when Gentry refused to put Jrue in the starting lineup because he was having success off the bench. Even though the team was suffering and we were losing games. Our starting unit kept looking pathetic. Even though Jrue’s best output was actually with AD. It took weeks and I think an injury to finally make the change and lo and behold it worked. The decision made a kind of sense in isolation, Jrue did well off the bench so why rock the boat? But as a matter of synergy and for the team, it went from making sense for a while to stubborn stupidity.
LINK /
I think it is as true today as it was a couple weeks ago.
- the lineup gives up a ton of offensive boards.
- it also does a very poor job at rebounding in general. I have to assume part of it is having three guards that aren’t really capable of boxing out well. That lack of size alone has to be a problem.
- It is producing the second worst three point defense in the league while on the floor.
- It’s function is to basically outscore the other team because overall defense is bad, so when the unit can’t get out hot, which is most nights, we seemingly get into enormous holes that we spend the rest of the game climbing out of.
- part of the numbers were also just a product of the schedule. Which the poster speculated and given the net rating has improved from a -6.7 to what it is now, sort of validates that hypothesis.
I still would honestly like to see Miller starting simply for the data. Or at least have that unit used more to expand the sample size. Definition of insanity and all that. We don’t have Hill back yet and don’t seem imminent to be making a trade for a three and D wing, so why not try it? The sample size of that unit is still small, but what do we have to lose when what we currently have isn’t really working?
As a side note, one thing I have grown tired of with Gentry is the tendency to to see things that are broke and think they don’t need fixing. What is going on now with this starting unit reminds of when Gentry refused to put Jrue in the starting lineup because he was having success off the bench. Even though the team was suffering and we were losing games. Our starting unit kept looking pathetic. Even though Jrue’s best output was actually with AD. It took weeks and I think an injury to finally make the change and lo and behold it worked. The decision made a kind of sense in isolation, Jrue did well off the bench so why rock the boat? But as a matter of synergy and for the team, it went from making sense for a while to stubborn stupidity.
This post was edited on 1/3/18 at 1:01 am
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