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Started By
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re: Trade season has started, BREAKING: DURANT TO SUNS, frick
Posted on 1/13/23 at 9:09 am to PELsu
Posted on 1/13/23 at 9:09 am to PELsu
quote:
Jaxon started for us in the playoffs
He "started" 6 games and played 83 total minutes. That's an average of 13.8 MPG. An actual starter averages 30+ MPG.
quote:
He scored 8 points in our very last game.
We truly live in an age of miracles.
quote:
Nerlens Noel has scored 8 points ONCE in the last TWO seasons. He’s a complete black hole on offense.
He's barely played in the last 2 seasons, and that does concern me. Not because I think he's lost the ability to be a vertical threat at 28, but because I wonder where his head is at and if he will fit the culture. Skill wise he's exactly what you want on paper from the 3rd center. Someone that can rebound and defend the paint while being a vertical threat doing damage from the Dunker's spot.
quote:
he would count $10 million next season.
He has a team option. If you want to keep him cheaper you decline the option and offer him a cheaper deal.
quote:
Just because we have a deep roster doesn’t mean Kira isn’t a quality backup NBA pg
I never said Kira wasn't a quality backup. I said I don't think he can beat out Jose and a pick in the low 30s is good value for a backup PG that you don't have the rotation spots to develop. We need Dyson to develop more than Kira, so even if we move on from Graham, where is Kira getting minutes?
I'm not saying this is a slam dunk deal, I'm saying it's fair value on paper, and unless Noel is a lazy jerk that Willie wouldn't play, it would make us better right now because he can do the things we need Jaxson to do that he doesn't.
1
Posted on 1/13/23 at 9:14 am to PELsu
quote:And we were terrible when he was on the court.
Jaxon started for us in the playoffs,
He was easily our worst playoff rotation player and very obviously was not a playoff rotation basketball player.
quote:We're not getting him to score points.
Nerlens Noel has scored 8 points ONCE in the last TWO seasons.
quote:We wouldn't be getting him to keep around for 6 years so that doesn't matter.
He’s 28 going on 35.
quote:They are absolutely not in any world "good" NBA basketball players. If they are, then there are about 350-400 "good" NBA basketball players, which makes that point moot.
Jaxon and Kira are young good players
quote:Not so sure what is insane about trading a guy who has no guarantee of ever cracking our regular season rotation, much less a shortened playoff rotation.
Just because we have a deep roster doesn’t mean Kira isn’t a quality backup NBA pg. You would be insane to trade them for Noel.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 9:15 am to TigerinATL
quote:And we were something like -28 in the minutes he played. He was awful in those playoffs.
He "started" 6 games and played 83 total minutes. That's an average of 13.8 MPG.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:00 am to shel311
Raptors receive Herb, Graham, Jax, 23 1 Lakers 1st swap top 2 protected, 24 Pels 1st, 27 Bucks 1st top 4 protected (turns into 2nds)
Pels receive OG, Precious Achiuwa, any minimum deal player they want to part with (I’d push for Juancho)
OG takes over the Herb minutes, Precious takes over the Jax minutes (he doesn’t average many minutes a game as is so wouldn’t be a problem) and they’re both under contract for next year. It would give us another scorer and a shooter to add to our starting rotation, and really elevate us in the playoffs to probably the most dangerous team in the NBA because you cannot leave anyone open at the 3.
Pels receive OG, Precious Achiuwa, any minimum deal player they want to part with (I’d push for Juancho)
OG takes over the Herb minutes, Precious takes over the Jax minutes (he doesn’t average many minutes a game as is so wouldn’t be a problem) and they’re both under contract for next year. It would give us another scorer and a shooter to add to our starting rotation, and really elevate us in the playoffs to probably the most dangerous team in the NBA because you cannot leave anyone open at the 3.
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 10:01 am
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:38 am to Soggymoss
That's an awful lot to give up to get someone who may or may not be better than Trey, and definitely doesn't shoot better than him.
OG isn't averaging 18ppg with Zion/BI/CJ in the lineup. Is his defense that much better than Trey's?
OG isn't averaging 18ppg with Zion/BI/CJ in the lineup. Is his defense that much better than Trey's?
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:39 am to shel311
quote:
quote:He "started" 6 games and played 83 total minutes. That's an average of 13.8 MPG.And we were something like -28 in the minutes he played. He was awful in those playoffs.
Jesus, are we using a plus minus stat over 80 playoff minutes? The comment was in response to saying these are players we get no use out of, as if Jaxon never plays.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:40 am to PELsu
quote:Did you actually watch and come away thinking he was anything but awful? Really?
Jesus, are we using a plus minus stat over 80 playoff minutes
quote:What good is getting use out of someone in the playoffs if the use they gave was awful play?
The comment was in response to saying these are players we get no use out of, as if Jaxon never plays.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:40 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
That's an awful lot to give up to get someone who may or may not be better than Trey, and definitely doesn't shoot better than him. OG isn't averaging 18ppg with Zion/BI/CJ in the lineup. Is his defense that much better than Trey's?
Is OG’s defense better than Treye’s? Oh god yes. Couldn’t be more farther apart.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:47 am to PELsu
quote:
Is OG’s defense better than Treye’s? Oh god yes. Couldn’t be more farther apart.
are you sure? I didn't say better, i said much better. i'm not saying Trey is great or anything, but i haven't watched enough of OG to say that for certain.
I know OG has the reputation of being a really good defender, but so does Lonzo and his reputation was better than what the actual was. The only reason i say all of this is b/c OG seems to be on the trade block a lot, and there must be a reason for that.
Even if he is a good bit better, is it that much better to offset Trey's superior shooting over him?
Like i said, OG, or anyone else isn't averaging 18ppg when Zion/BI/CJ play. You're a role player at that point, and i think Trey is better fit for the role.
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 10:48 am
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:50 am to PELsu
quote:
The comment was in response to saying these are players we get no use out of, as if Jaxon never plays.
It takes two front court players getting hurt in order for him to play. He wasn't playing at all when Zion/Nance/JV are healthy.
If he was useful, he would have gotten some minutes when those 3 were healthy, but he didn't, b/c he isn't useful to us.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:52 am to shel311
quote:
quote:Jesus, are we using a plus minus stat over 80 playoff minutesDid you actually watch and come away thinking he was anything but awful? Really? quote:The comment was in response to saying these are players we get no use out of, as if Jaxon never plays.What good is getting use out of someone in the playoffs if the use they gave was awful play?
This is so beyond dramatic. No, Jaxon was not awful. He scored 35 points on 25 shots, 56% from the field. And at least for periods of time helped us give the Suns a different look with extreme size and length on the court. Jaxon has been more than fine over the last two seasons playing the 4 position. He’s just not capable of being the lone 5 and banging with centers, he is not a center IMO.
And he was 21 years old last season.
I’m still baffled on where everyone thinks Noel is going to fit in. You can’t play him with Zion or Jonas, that’s a complete non starter. So are we really saying as a spot 5 with Larry at the four? Is the plan to have Larry running around the perimeter against 4’s or worse?
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:57 am to PELsu
quote:I'm fairly confident you're in quite the minority there.
This is so beyond dramatic. No, Jaxon was not awful.
He was objectively bad in the postseason. It was painfully clear he was NOT a playoff rotation level player.
quote:It was year 3. We are now in year 4, and he hasn't shown to be any better than the guy who was not a playoff rotation level player. He has to be paid after this year. You want to give a 2nd contract in the $10mil or more range a guy who has would have no chance of being in our playoff rotation if our frontcourt is healthy?
And he was 21 years old last season.
quote:Nance does just fine at the 4, what is your issue with Nance at the 4? Nance actually plays 2/3rds of his Pels minutes at the 4 and has played pretty darn well.
So are we really saying as a spot 5 with Larry at the four? Is the plan to have Larry running around the perimeter against 4’s or worse?
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:57 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
quote:Is OG’s defense better than Treye’s? Oh god yes. Couldn’t be more farther apart. are you sure? I didn't say better, i said much better. i'm not saying Trey is great or anything, but i haven't watched enough of OG to say that for certain. I know OG has the reputation of being a really good defender, but so does Lonzo and his reputation was better than what the actual was. The only reason i say all of this is b/c OG seems to be on the trade block a lot, and there must be a reason for that. Even if he is a good bit better, is it that much better to offset Trey's superior shooting over him? Like i said, OG, or anyone else isn't averaging 18ppg when Zion/BI/CJ play. You're a role player at that point, and i think Trey is better fit for the role.
Treye is overall a poor defender. Effort is generally there, just not the results. OG on the other hand will be in the discussion for defensive player of the year in the league. He would be a hands down starter and closer in our finishing lineup.
That being said, I’m not sure I am following the premise of the conversation. OG would be replacing Herb, not Treye.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 10:57 am to TeddyPadillac
OG is about 2 tiers higher than Trey overall, and his defense is WAY better.
Yes his shooting is slightly worse, but not by much, and that’s with him being a focus of the defense on the Raptors. He had a slow November shooting, but he’s been 37%+ or better every other month.
Also, Trey gets 4 wide open 3’s a game, he’s shooting 38.6% on those, OG gets 2.9, he’s shooting 39.4%.
Catch and Shoot 3’s is 40.4 for Trey to 39.4 for OG, so you have essentially no drop off in shooting, but far superior defense.
In layman’s terms OG is essentially Herb on defense with Trey’s shooting on offense.
He would be taking Herbs role which is elite defender in starting lineup, but gives you more shooting for those 7-10 shots Herb takes a game.
Yes his shooting is slightly worse, but not by much, and that’s with him being a focus of the defense on the Raptors. He had a slow November shooting, but he’s been 37%+ or better every other month.
Also, Trey gets 4 wide open 3’s a game, he’s shooting 38.6% on those, OG gets 2.9, he’s shooting 39.4%.
Catch and Shoot 3’s is 40.4 for Trey to 39.4 for OG, so you have essentially no drop off in shooting, but far superior defense.
In layman’s terms OG is essentially Herb on defense with Trey’s shooting on offense.
He would be taking Herbs role which is elite defender in starting lineup, but gives you more shooting for those 7-10 shots Herb takes a game.
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 11:02 am
Posted on 1/13/23 at 11:08 am to shel311
Wait, what? Nance has been the backup 5 since he joined the Pels.
And I’m not going to continue the conversation of “Jaxon is awful, not a playoff rotation player, and everyone knows it.”
He was 21, played 80 minutes, and was fine. Some good moments, some not so good. Anything beyond that is too far.
I don’t want to be the guy that has to defend Jaxon, trust me. But no one can say with a straight face he hasn’t gotten better since coming into the league. No one should be able to say with a straight face they know what Kira is going to be. Noel makes the same as Jaxon and there should be zero expectation of Jaxon to see more than MLE money.
Your 5’s are Jonas, Larry and Billy. Noel is different but not better and has no place here. And you are trading two young guys with great room for improvement that are massively more versatile. This is a grass is greener discussion. But in this case, that lawn is half dead, and the other half is dead more than it is green. I would at least like to dream of a good looking lawn.
And I’m not going to continue the conversation of “Jaxon is awful, not a playoff rotation player, and everyone knows it.”
He was 21, played 80 minutes, and was fine. Some good moments, some not so good. Anything beyond that is too far.
I don’t want to be the guy that has to defend Jaxon, trust me. But no one can say with a straight face he hasn’t gotten better since coming into the league. No one should be able to say with a straight face they know what Kira is going to be. Noel makes the same as Jaxon and there should be zero expectation of Jaxon to see more than MLE money.
Your 5’s are Jonas, Larry and Billy. Noel is different but not better and has no place here. And you are trading two young guys with great room for improvement that are massively more versatile. This is a grass is greener discussion. But in this case, that lawn is half dead, and the other half is dead more than it is green. I would at least like to dream of a good looking lawn.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 11:16 am to PELsu
quote:No need to, he was awful in the postseason. Pretty sure most realize that.
And I’m not going to continue the conversation of “Jaxon is awful, not a playoff rotation player, and everyone knows it.”
quote:He was bad
He was 21, played 80 minutes, and was fine. Some good moments, some not so good. Anything beyond that is too far.
quote:He's not as good right now as he was last season. He's scoring much less and wayyyyyy less efficiently than he did just last season, even adjusted if you look at per 36.
But no one can say with a straight face he hasn’t gotten better since coming into the league.
quote:Billy does what Jval does, but not as good. Noel provides a different skillset that we could use more than what Billy gives us.
Your 5’s are Jonas, Larry and Billy. Noel is different but not better and has no place here
quote:1 is gone after this season. THe other may develop into something but as of now is in year 3 and not in our regular season rotation.
And you are trading two young guys with great room for improvement that are massively more versatile.
quote:Not every trade is a big splash. Small moves/improvements are made in the margins, those are important too.
This is a grass is greener discussion. But in this case, that lawn is half dead, and the other half is dead more than it is green. I would at least like to dream of a good looking lawn.
This post was edited on 1/13/23 at 11:17 am
Posted on 1/13/23 at 11:17 am to Soggymoss
I didn't look at open C&S 3's, but i suspected OG was probably close to Trey with that.
I'm not saying OG isn't better than Trey, i just think giving up Herb, a lottery pick and another 1st seems like a lot for someone you only have control over for 1 more year. OG isn't going to take Herb's spot and be able to be the same guy he's been the last 3 years in Toronto. He's not scoring 18 a game. He'd probably be around 12.
My point is do you want to pay that role player $18M/yr, and maybe more if we extend him?
and it is curious to me why he's always talked about in trades. He hasn't played even half of a season the last 2 years, but he has been healthy all this year. With our luck i'm sure we'd trade for him and he'd have a season ending injury within 2 weeks of getting here.
If OG's defense truly is elite, then i'm all for it.
You put a lineup out there with CJ/BI/Zion/OG/Trey, i think you can do some serious damage, especially if OG and Trey can play big and rebound. Obviously that's not a lineup you play against a Jokic or Embiid, but that's a lineup that would eat GSW, Memphis, and Dallas alive.
I'm not saying OG isn't better than Trey, i just think giving up Herb, a lottery pick and another 1st seems like a lot for someone you only have control over for 1 more year. OG isn't going to take Herb's spot and be able to be the same guy he's been the last 3 years in Toronto. He's not scoring 18 a game. He'd probably be around 12.
My point is do you want to pay that role player $18M/yr, and maybe more if we extend him?
and it is curious to me why he's always talked about in trades. He hasn't played even half of a season the last 2 years, but he has been healthy all this year. With our luck i'm sure we'd trade for him and he'd have a season ending injury within 2 weeks of getting here.
If OG's defense truly is elite, then i'm all for it.
You put a lineup out there with CJ/BI/Zion/OG/Trey, i think you can do some serious damage, especially if OG and Trey can play big and rebound. Obviously that's not a lineup you play against a Jokic or Embiid, but that's a lineup that would eat GSW, Memphis, and Dallas alive.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 11:26 am to TeddyPadillac
OG’s defense you can take to the bank. He definitely brings a lot of Herb but possibly with more strength to match up with the bigger bodied guys. He’s fantastic.
His shooting has been good not great. Better than expected for sure. And at times very good. I don’t like the idea of putting him in the same sentence with Treye shooting wise, but I do think he can hurt teams thinking they will leave him wide open like they started to do on Herb.
Regarding trade discussions, remember he has never been traded nor any substantial rumor. You hear his name because people want him. And more now because the Raptors could be lottery bound. But it largely started when he voiced wanting more of an offensive role. He likes the ball in his hands. And his greatest weakness might be his passing ability or lack thereof. These would be your major concerns with him coming here. But at the end of the day, he’s probably the best 3 and D wing in the league. Any team would be lucky to have him.
His shooting has been good not great. Better than expected for sure. And at times very good. I don’t like the idea of putting him in the same sentence with Treye shooting wise, but I do think he can hurt teams thinking they will leave him wide open like they started to do on Herb.
Regarding trade discussions, remember he has never been traded nor any substantial rumor. You hear his name because people want him. And more now because the Raptors could be lottery bound. But it largely started when he voiced wanting more of an offensive role. He likes the ball in his hands. And his greatest weakness might be his passing ability or lack thereof. These would be your major concerns with him coming here. But at the end of the day, he’s probably the best 3 and D wing in the league. Any team would be lucky to have him.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 11:28 am to TeddyPadillac
Unless that trade comes with an agreed extension, that's a hell of a lot to give up for a year and a half for OG. And they'll probably want Trey over Herb.
Posted on 1/13/23 at 11:38 am to PELsu
quote:
. But it largely started when he voiced wanting more of an offensive role.
well then why would he want to come here?
like i said, the biggest thing about having a guy like OG come here with his contract and skillset is that he will absolutely get demoted to even more of a role player than he already is.
He's not getting the ball on offense except to shoot open 3's or drive to the goal when he's run off the 3 point line. There will never be a play called for him on offense. Never.
If he came here he would need to understand that he's coming here to play a role, and that role is to help us win a championship. If you want to go be Jerami Grant in Detroit, then go do that and maybe it works out for him, but he's not going to showcase anything offensively on the Pelicans roster with a healthy BI/Zion/CJ.
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