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Message
re: Moe Harkless: Revisited
Posted on 4/3/13 at 6:59 pm to TigerinATL
Posted on 4/3/13 at 6:59 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
That obviously depends on what happens with Rivers. IF he develops shooting and finishing ability he'll be a pretty good player himself.
So he's about a half a player of a guy the same age. Can we stop using his age as a crutch and excuse?
2
Posted on 4/3/13 at 7:01 pm to teke184
I'd do it.
...averaging 16.4 and 8.2 at 45 FG% in 20 games for Orlando.
.9 SPG and 1.4 BPG...very versatile defensively...solid free throw shooting, decent three point shooting.
He's under contract for a few years for pennies and only 20 years old. 1.5M next season plus what we take on from Hedo (does he have anything left?).
How much would we end up paying a guy like Corey Brewer?
...averaging 16.4 and 8.2 at 45 FG% in 20 games for Orlando.
.9 SPG and 1.4 BPG...very versatile defensively...solid free throw shooting, decent three point shooting.
He's under contract for a few years for pennies and only 20 years old. 1.5M next season plus what we take on from Hedo (does he have anything left?).
How much would we end up paying a guy like Corey Brewer?
Posted on 4/3/13 at 7:01 pm to The Future
quote:
So he's about a half a player of a guy the same age. Can we stop using his age as a crutch and excuse?
Yeah, clearly being a 20 year old in your first year in the league is no excuse for not putting up great numbers.
Posted on 4/3/13 at 7:03 pm to tehchampion140
It's not an excuse for him being almost completely inept on the basketball court.
Posted on 4/3/13 at 7:06 pm to The Future
quote:
It's not an excuse for him being almost completely inept on the basketball court.
James Harden averaged 10 points on 40% FGs as a rookie and now averages 26 points on 44% FGs. Clearly, age and experience have nothing to do with production and Rivers cannot possibly become a good player with time.
Posted on 4/3/13 at 7:13 pm to teke184
We can't just take on all of that salary without matching some of it. The Lewis deal was about shedding long-term contracts. We don't have any to shed now except maybe Gordon.
Posted on 4/3/13 at 7:20 pm to The Future
quote:
It's not an excuse for him being almost completely inept on the basketball court.
Rivers was way more terrible than he ever should have been.
There's a lot of talk/optimism of him becoming a good player in this league with not much evidence for that. I just want to see more decency/competency out of him.
Age absolutely is a legitimate excuse though. I hope he figures it out. The team needs him. Top 10 picks have to work out somewhat for teams like the Hornets, or it's easy to become the Bobcats.
...OP was right, it's all hindsight...but oh, what could have been had we landed Drummond or Harkless.
I wonder if the team was expecting this type of season from Vasquez. If they had known, maybe Rivers wouldn't have been the pick (more hindsight).
This post was edited on 4/3/13 at 7:25 pm
Posted on 4/3/13 at 7:22 pm to Jester
Sign Al Jefferson 4yr/55mil
Sign Kyle Korver 3yr/ 18-20mil
Trade Lopez to Atl for 1 of their 2014 1st rounders
Trade EG and our 2014 1st to Orl for Harris or Harkless and 1 of their 2014 1st rounders
Trade Greivis for Eric Maynor
Draft Trey Burke
Burke
Maynor
Korver
Rivers
Harris
Aminu?
Miller
AD
Ryno
Smith
Al Jeff
Smith
Get into the playoffs next year and gain experience as well as having money in the bank coupled with draft picks for the loaded 2014 class.
I have no idea if this would work money-wise or if teams are that willing to give up those draft picks but it's not like we're giving them junk in return. EG may want to be somewhere else like ORL and Lopez going to ATL could move the 6'10" Horford to the 4.
Be gentle, it was just a random thought.
Sign Kyle Korver 3yr/ 18-20mil
Trade Lopez to Atl for 1 of their 2014 1st rounders
Trade EG and our 2014 1st to Orl for Harris or Harkless and 1 of their 2014 1st rounders
Trade Greivis for Eric Maynor
Draft Trey Burke
Burke
Maynor
Korver
Rivers
Harris
Aminu?
Miller
AD
Ryno
Smith
Al Jeff
Smith
Get into the playoffs next year and gain experience as well as having money in the bank coupled with draft picks for the loaded 2014 class.
I have no idea if this would work money-wise or if teams are that willing to give up those draft picks but it's not like we're giving them junk in return. EG may want to be somewhere else like ORL and Lopez going to ATL could move the 6'10" Horford to the 4.
Be gentle, it was just a random thought.
Posted on 4/3/13 at 7:35 pm to tehchampion140
Did Harden shoot 50% from the free throw line on 6 PPG with 1 Rpg and 2 APG?
Harden had a man body, rivers weighs about 190 pounds
Harden showed flashes, rivers was having one of the worst seasons statistically of all time before he got hurt
Harden had a man body, rivers weighs about 190 pounds
Harden showed flashes, rivers was having one of the worst seasons statistically of all time before he got hurt
Posted on 4/3/13 at 7:42 pm to The Future
quote:
Harden showed flashes, rivers was having one of the worst seasons statistically of all time before he got hurt
Do you even watch the games? Of course Rivers will never be as good as Harden, but you act like it's unfathomable for Rivers to improve when Harden went from an ok rookie to one of the best players in the league. You cannot tell me Rivers was one of the worst players to ever touch a basketball this year if you saw him playing games recently instead of looking at stats like they're the basketball Bible. shite, Rivers isn't even the worst player on this Hornets team.
Posted on 4/3/13 at 7:51 pm to SHMILL
quote:
Trade EG and our 2014 1st to Orl for Harris or Harkless and 1 of their 2014 1st rounders
Trade Greivis for Eric Maynor
...don't like those.
Korver would be rough as a starter guarding SGs.
Posted on 4/3/13 at 8:13 pm to drake20
I hear that but it would give us two deadly shooters in him and Ryno..
Would get rid of EG/Lopez/Greivis who seem to be not very likable by our fans for some reason..
We'd have draft picks for the 2014 class everyone is drooling over and AD would have the complimentary big man perfect to his game.
The OP loved Harris and Harkless which I agree with along with their contracts. And not having EG would open room for AD longterm down the road.
Also, I bet more fans would be in the seats = Benson happy.
This gives Rivers time to learn and develop, AD wouldn't have to press on offense, and Burke can learn to find the open man in Korver/Ryno/Harris.
2014 we'd be ready for the run.
Would get rid of EG/Lopez/Greivis who seem to be not very likable by our fans for some reason..
We'd have draft picks for the 2014 class everyone is drooling over and AD would have the complimentary big man perfect to his game.
The OP loved Harris and Harkless which I agree with along with their contracts. And not having EG would open room for AD longterm down the road.
Also, I bet more fans would be in the seats = Benson happy.
This gives Rivers time to learn and develop, AD wouldn't have to press on offense, and Burke can learn to find the open man in Korver/Ryno/Harris.
2014 we'd be ready for the run.
This post was edited on 4/3/13 at 8:16 pm
Posted on 4/3/13 at 8:58 pm to drake20
quote:
Duncan won back-to-back MVPs next to Robinson. (2001-02 and 2002-03).
They were Robinson's last two seasons at 36 and 37 years old.
Robinson put up 12.2, 8.3, 1.8, and 50.7 FG% in 29.5 MPG and 8.5, 7.9, 1.7, and 46.9 FG% in 26.2 MPG, respectively.
8.6 and 6.6 shot attempts per game those last two seasons.
...so ya, it wasn't quite Al Jefferson or David Robinson (if you catch my drift) playing next to Duncan.
Obviously it's not an exact science. The point is a good center will help Davis. Who gives a frick if it's Davis scoring 20 PPG and a center scoring 12 PPG OR if it's a center scoring 20 PPG and Davis scoring 15 PPG. The point is to win.
Anyway, The Admiral (2nd team all NBA, 3rd in NBA in PER if you catch my drift.) went for 22 PPG on 15 FGA in Duncan's rookie year in which Duncan scored 21 PPG and won ROY.
Or in 98-99, Robinson (3rd in NBA in PER again) scored 16 PPG on 11 FGA. Duncan averaged 22 PPG and was only the Finals MVP.
Or when Robinson (3rd team all NBA, 5th in NBA in PER) averaged 18 PPG with 13 FGA in a 99-00 where Tim Duncan averaged 23 PPG and was 1st team All NBA.
Or the aforementioned 2001-2002 year where 36 year old Robinson was 3rd team All NBA and 10th in the NBA in PER when Duncan was league MVP.
THAT washed up old arse David Robinson smdh
Posted on 4/3/13 at 9:27 pm to The Future
quote:
So he's about a half a player of a guy the same age. Can we stop using his age as a crutch and excuse?
Rivers showed signs of being a good defender, shot 40% from 3 after the AllStar break, didn't turn the ball over much and got into the lane at will. If he could hit free throws and finish in traffic he'd be a pretty complete player so I don't see the problem with seeing how he progresses before saying he'll never be a good player.
Posted on 4/3/13 at 9:37 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
The point is a good center will help Davis
Sure. But comparing David Robinson- even old Admiral- to Al Jefferson is a joke. A good center doesn't have to be a big money guy. He needs to be a guy that fits around Davis.
quote:
THAT washed up old arse David Robinson
Robinson is one of the most efficient players in the history of the NBA. The fact that his PER was so high as he got older is not a shock and it's in large part because Duncan made it easy for him. Robinson was also one of the most versatile centers to ever suit up and he was able to change his game to fit Duncan.
The question is do you really think Al Jefferson is willing and/or able to sublimate his game to fit the burgeoning talents of Anthony Davis?
Jefferson can only post up and rebound. This team is atrocious on defense. Over his career, his teams have been worse when he is on the court. His teams by the way have been Minnesota and Utah. Not exactly the 96 Bulls.
But hey, Davis needs a center!!! He's only the most revolutionary player the league has seen in a decade. Let's make him fit into a certain model because there are 3 260lb centers in the league and 20 year old Davis isn't strong enough to guard them!!! He will always be this weak!!!!
Posted on 4/3/13 at 9:53 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
Anyway, The Admiral (2nd team all NBA, 3rd in NBA in PER if you catch my drift.) went for 22 PPG on 15 FGA in Duncan's rookie year in which Duncan scored 21 PPG and won ROY.
Or in 98-99, Robinson (3rd in NBA in PER again) scored 16 PPG on 11 FGA. Duncan averaged 22 PPG and was only the Finals MVP.
Or when Robinson (3rd team all NBA, 5th in NBA in PER) averaged 18 PPG with 13 FGA in a 99-00 where Tim Duncan averaged 23 PPG and was 1st team All NBA.
Or the aforementioned 2001-2002 year where 36 year old Robinson was 3rd team All NBA and 10th in the NBA in PER when Duncan was league MVP.
THAT washed up old arse David Robinson smdh
Nobody's saying Robinson wasn't great in the 90s. I wasn't trying to make a jab. It would have been unclear if I had said "David Robinson wasn't playing next to Tim Duncan"... Robinson wasn't washed up...just saying that he maybe wasn't one of the top Cs like he once was...I was posting the stats for another poster's request...that's what I interpreted their point to be.
I'm not trying to say that a great big next to Davis wouldn't work or would make Davis terrible. I'm saying I think the team has more pressing needs and is solid down low. Using most of our cap for Jefferson just creates a log jam down low, making us bad at 1-3. The move wouldn't make us that good, and causes minutes issues for all our bigs. It also takes away Davis' positional flexibility too soon.
Lopez has had a good season, and he and Jefferson have similar weaknesses. Someone like Jefferson isn't what this team is missing, imo.
quote:
Obviously it's not an exact science. The point is a good center will help Davis. Who gives a frick if it's Davis scoring 20 PPG and a center scoring 12 PPG OR if it's a center scoring 20 PPG and Davis scoring 15 PPG. The point is to win.
I agree...Many NBA players do care about that stuff though, unfortunately. Keeping your stars happy is an element of the league now. I think he's doing just fine without the help. Would he be better off getting the help from other positions where we are worse off? I think so.
We agree that there are the 3 positions up for remodeling (PG, SF, and C). If we can only upgrade two, which one do you think should be left out?
I guess most think it's PG...I think it's C. We have 3/4 bigs that are good for their slots...all still young and hopefully improving. Davis' continued improvement and increased minutes, as well as improved perimeter D, will mask the defensive deficiencies at C.
This is a solid rebounding team. It doesn't matter how many rebounds Lopez gets if they get the job done as a team.
This post was edited on 4/3/13 at 9:59 pm
Posted on 4/3/13 at 10:03 pm to corndeaux
quote:
But hey, Davis needs a center!!! He's only the most revolutionary player the league has seen in a decade. Let's make him fit into a certain model because there are 3 260lb centers in the league and 20 year old Davis isn't strong enough to guard them!!! He will always be this weak!!!!
I think it's way too soon to say Davis will never be a C. If he turns into a 20 and 15 player that can play both positions quickly, there is no need to spend big money on a C (especially one who is bad defensively, when that is this team's biggest weakness). Bigger needs at other positions.
...you can use Lopez or someone like him more for those games against the big centers.
This post was edited on 4/3/13 at 10:05 pm
Posted on 4/3/13 at 10:29 pm to corndeaux
Ok, so was Robinson impressive in his old age or not? Now his success was a byproduct of Duncan? 
I never compared Robinson to Al Jeff. You said that a post up, offensive center wouldn't work well with Davis. I simply showed you that it would. Even so, a guy like Al Jefferson has been a top 5 center in the NBA for the past few years. I don't care what some some half assed, poorly researched Zach Lowe article. He can spin things however he wants. He doesnt want to talk about the playoff teams that Jefferson hitched to his back. He along with a guy like Pekovic are in the upper echelon of centers in the NBA. David Robinson isn't the only player in the history of the NBA to change their game to adapt to a superstar teammate.
Yeah, a good center = gonna cost a lot of money. Omar frickin Asik makes $9m a year. Deandre Jordan makes $10.5m. Kendrick Perkins? $9m. Roy Hibbert? $14m. Okafor? $13m. These guys are average to below average at best.
Who are the good, cheap centers? Robin Lopez? Kosta Koufas? Yeah, a $5m center is not going to get the job done. Your defense and rebounds and blocks cost money, too.
chill with the butthurt, dude.
No one said this. You don't think Davis will eat PF alive? Let the centers center.
Pekovic- 290
Drummond- 285
Hibbert- 280
Cousins- 270
Kanter- 270
Howard- 265
M Gasol- 265
B Lopez- 265
Kaman- 265
Bogut- 260
Asik- 7' 255
Okafor- 255
Garnett- 253
McGee- 252
Horford- 250
Nene- 250
Hickson- 245
Vucevic- 240
Chandler- 240
Gortat- 240
Noah- 235
Sanders- 235
Anthony Davis- 220
I mean, we can have Davis banging with these guys all year. Or let him work over PFs with his length and quickness.
It may take 10 years for him to put on 20 lbs and even still he will be on the low end of the weight spectrum.
I never compared Robinson to Al Jeff. You said that a post up, offensive center wouldn't work well with Davis. I simply showed you that it would. Even so, a guy like Al Jefferson has been a top 5 center in the NBA for the past few years. I don't care what some some half assed, poorly researched Zach Lowe article. He can spin things however he wants. He doesnt want to talk about the playoff teams that Jefferson hitched to his back. He along with a guy like Pekovic are in the upper echelon of centers in the NBA. David Robinson isn't the only player in the history of the NBA to change their game to adapt to a superstar teammate.
quote:
A good center doesn't have to be a big money guy.
Yeah, a good center = gonna cost a lot of money. Omar frickin Asik makes $9m a year. Deandre Jordan makes $10.5m. Kendrick Perkins? $9m. Roy Hibbert? $14m. Okafor? $13m. These guys are average to below average at best.
Who are the good, cheap centers? Robin Lopez? Kosta Koufas? Yeah, a $5m center is not going to get the job done. Your defense and rebounds and blocks cost money, too.
quote:
But hey, Davis needs a center!!! He's only the most revolutionary player the league has seen in a decade. Let's make him fit into a certain model because there are 3 260lb centers in the league and 20 year old Davis isn't strong enough to guard them!!! He will always be this weak!!!!
chill with the butthurt, dude.
No one said this. You don't think Davis will eat PF alive? Let the centers center.
Pekovic- 290
Drummond- 285
Hibbert- 280
Cousins- 270
Kanter- 270
Howard- 265
M Gasol- 265
B Lopez- 265
Kaman- 265
Bogut- 260
Asik- 7' 255
Okafor- 255
Garnett- 253
McGee- 252
Horford- 250
Nene- 250
Hickson- 245
Vucevic- 240
Chandler- 240
Gortat- 240
Noah- 235
Sanders- 235
Anthony Davis- 220
I mean, we can have Davis banging with these guys all year. Or let him work over PFs with his length and quickness.
It may take 10 years for him to put on 20 lbs and even still he will be on the low end of the weight spectrum.
Posted on 4/3/13 at 11:55 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
You said that a post up, offensive center wouldn't work well with Davis. I simply showed you that it would.
You did nothing of the sort. You said David Robinson played well next to Tim Duncan. It has absolutely nothing to do with Al Jefferson playing next to Anthony Davis. Unless Jefferson has offensive game out to 15 feet, the similarities end with all four players are tall.
quote:
I don't care what some some half assed, poorly researched Zach Lowe article.
Good point. Your research and thoughts are much better than one of the best and most knowledgeable NBA writers on the planet.
quote:
He doesnt want to talk about the playoff teams that Jefferson hitched to his back
You mean the 2012 Jazz?
quote:
David Robinson isn't the only player in the history of the NBA to change their game to adapt to a superstar teammate.
Jefferson has no game to change to. He is a great post up player and rebounder and that's it. What does he do if he isn't on the block?
If you're asking him to change to fit Davis, you're wasting your money. If you're asking Davis to change to fit Jefferson, you're wasting his talent.
quote:
Who are the good, cheap centers?
shite. I wanted them to trade back into the first round and draft Ezeli. As for FAs, it's tough to tell what the market will be since everyone is spooked by the new tax rules. And you never know who will be available via trade.
If they can get a big name guy for around $10million, I'm for it. Otherwise I look at Pachulia, Dalembert, and DeJaun Blair. Hickson too, but he will probably be pricey. IMO they don't need a heavy minutes guy. Just an Aaron Gray type, someone who can play 25-30 minutes. Spend the money/make a trade on backcourt and wing help- that's where this team is truly awful.
quote:
I mean, we can have Davis banging with these guys all year
No one is saying this. You can sign a center to play 25mpg and still have Davis play PF most of the time. But signing a big time center means you're spending money on a guy that won't be able to play at the same time with two of your best players. If you want to move Anderson, that's fine. But having Anderson, Davis, Jefferson is a waste of resources and there is no way Jefferson/Anderson would work defensively.
I have to admit I haven't watched Pekovic much this season. I still don't think it makes a ton of sense to have 3 heavy minute frontcourt players, but perhaps he could play with Anderson.
Posted on 4/4/13 at 6:44 am to corndeaux
quote:
No one is saying this. You can sign a center to play 25mpg and still have Davis play PF most of the time. But signing a big time center means you're spending money on a guy that won't be able to play at the same time with two of your best players. If you want to move Anderson, that's fine. But having Anderson, Davis, Jefferson is a waste of resources and there is no way Jefferson/Anderson would work defensively.
Yeah, the issue isn't whether Davis is helped by a better center next to him, the issue is we have enough cap space available to add one really good player next year. If there were better SF options available to the Pelicans we wouldn't even be having this discussion because it would seem stupid to waste that money on a center when there was an obvious upgrade at SF.
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