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Message
re: Mac trigger warning - His Pels Players Trade Values
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:16 am to Townedrunkard
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:16 am to Townedrunkard
quote:
Trey must have a lot more trade value around the league right?
He has more value than Lauri easily. He's 3 years younger and hasn't hit his prime yet. Lauri doesn't have another leap in him imo. Trey does.
1
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:18 am to Jester
quote:Basketball Reference, under "Shooting"
Where are you pulling those stats? I'd be curious what those numbers are for our roster.
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:19 am to Epic Cajun
quote:That's elite level that not many shooters reach with efficiency.
If he gets more run? Yes, or close to it.
I hope he can, just highly doubt it, in part actually because of 2s. I don't see Hawkins ever being good or efficient on 2s.
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:21 am to Townedrunkard
quote:What metric is that?
Trey must have a lot more trade value around the league right?
Than Herb, yes.
Than Lauri, no. Because Lauri produces more. He's just extremely dependent on others to get him shots, much more than you seemed to realize initially.
This post was edited on 6/19/24 at 11:22 am
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:22 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
As great as Dyson is on defense, his lack of offense would likely push him down in the draft. There was hope that Dyson could run point, adequately shoot the 3 and be an above average passer.
His shooting is worse than we thought coming in.
His defense was better than we thought coming in.
His court vision/ IQ is elite (much like Herb)
His passing IS above average.
He isn't Lonzo but he is already an above average passer. His VISION has to get better and the game has to slow down. Both vision/ game speed are normal adjustments for even the best PG's coming into the NBA.
Then you consider most of those guys are 21-23 y/o rookies and Dyson was 19 y/o.
Again every comparison/ comment has complete disregard to age and impact.
You can't judge the things he struggled with at 19 y/o and discount the things he excelled in at 19 y/o
If he's a mediocre shooter at 19 anything could happen at 24/25. ( Herb)
If he's an elite defender at 19? That means he has a chance to be DPOY for a long time.
But yes fans that had never heard of Dyson at 19 y/o when we drafted him had their own personal expectations that Dyson has not upheld. Very unfortunate for those dumb arse people who don't understand basketball or how age/ development works.
This post was edited on 6/19/24 at 11:25 am
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:24 am to shel311
quote:
You guys don't watch Lauri play, that is what we've learned from these replies.
I watched him enough to know Griff fricked up by not trading him for Ball when nobody else on here wanted anything to do with him. Them laughed at everyone that was ready to ship Zion out for him at the beginning of the year which I thought was otherly idiotic.
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:28 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:I love Trey and hope he continues to progress, but I doubt he has more value right now than Lauri.
He has more value than Lauri easily. He's 3 years younger and hasn't hit his prime yet. Lauri doesn't have another leap in him imo. Trey does.
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:30 am to Dantheman504
quote:
His shooting is worse than we thought coming in. His defense was better than we thought coming in.
Correct.
quote:
His court vision/ IQ is elite (much like Herb) His passing IS above average.
Herb and Dyson defense IQ are elite. I wouldn’t say both their court vision is Elite. I guess my question is how do you quantify above average passing? He averaged 2.7 and 2.3 assists last 2 years.
quote:
Again every comparison/ comment has complete disregard to age and impact. You can't judge the things he struggled with at 19 y/o and discount the things he excelled in at 19 y/o
I think people take this into account but you need to also take into account that not EVERY defensive only prospect will improve with age. It is not a given. There have been plenty of examples in the NBA of defensive young prospects who never made enough strides offensively to stay in the league- I’m not saying this is Dyson but there can’t be this automatic assumption he will become better in all his offensive issues.
This post was edited on 6/19/24 at 11:35 am
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:32 am to Townedrunkard
quote:Not relevant to this discussion, but that's never stopped you from repeating that
watched him enough to know Griff fricked up by not trading him for Ball when nobody else on here wanted anything to do with him. Them laughed at everyone that was ready to ship Zion out for him at the beginning of the year which I thought was otherly idiotic
This post was edited on 6/19/24 at 11:33 am
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:34 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
be fair as prospects Dyson was expected to be more offensively than Herb was as a prospect. As great as Dyson is on defense, his lack of offense would likely push him down in the draft. There was hope that Dyson could run point, adequately shoot the 3 and be an above average passer. Not sure if any of those have panned out so far. They still might but so far nothing
HERB WAS 23 y/o WHEN WE DRAFTED HIM.
DYSON JUST TURNED 21 y/o.
"Not sure if any of those have panned out"
"So far nothing"
Holy shite this is exactly what I mean.
I'll put it into another perspective:
Dyson is ALREADY on pace to be as good of a defender or better than Herb in (2) years when they would both be (23).
Dyson has 2 MORE FULL SEASONS TO BE AS BAD AS HERB'S ROOKIE OFFENSIVE #'S WERE until anyone can say fricking ANYTHING about his offense or potential......
Herb's progression from 23-25 is all the info needed to make a logical decision on Dyson at 21 y/o.
There is no argument. Call me an a-hole but anyone who thinks otherwise on this matter is just ignorant.
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:38 am to Dantheman504
quote:
Herb's progression from 23-25 is all the info needed to make a logical decision on Dyson at 21 y/o. There is no argument. Call me an a-hole but anyone who thinks otherwise on this matter is just ignorant.
This is all ASSUMPTION Dyson will make the same progression and leap as Herb.
No one is calling you an ahole but you need to acknowledge there is a chance that Dyson doesn’t make this offensive leap like Herb. The fact you think its a GIVEN he will make a Herb like leap due to his age is the issue. I hope Dyson does but its not a GIVEN.
quote:
"Not sure if any of those have panned out" "So far nothing"
This was in reference to his offense which when drafted we thought he would be further along on. Not sure why you think this a false or wrong statement.
This post was edited on 6/19/24 at 11:42 am
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:46 am to shel311
quote:
That's elite level that not many shooters reach with efficiency.
I hope he can, just highly doubt it, in part actually because of 2s. I don't see Hawkins ever being good or efficient on 2s.
If you look at their first seasons, they aren't too far off in shooting.
2's: 41.1% vs 41.8%
3's: 36.6% vs 38.2%
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:48 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
This was in reference to his offense which when drafted we thought he would be further along on. Not sure why you think this a false or wrong statement.
Because you are not accounting for age....
We drafted him with what we knew BECAUSE OF HIS AGE. It was because of what he could already do well and have an extra 2+ years than everyone else to develop.
If Dyson was 23 y/o guess where the frick he would have been drafted....
He was drafted there because of everything he can do at 19 y/o compared to 23 year olds being drafted AND still has 3 years to catch up to them on other skills....
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:51 am to Dantheman504
quote:
He was drafted there because of everything he can do at 19 y/o compared to 23 year olds being drafted AND still has 3 years to catch up to them on other skills....
I'm not saying that his skills haven't increased, but can you point to his improvement from year 1 to year 2? What makes you believe that he's going to have a vast improvement in the next 2 years? Again, I'm not saying that he won't, I'm just curious why you think that he will.
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:56 am to Pels_Yaz
Every comparison for Dyson is based off of where he's struggled or how he compares to someone older than him. But at the same time everyone wants to ignore that he has several years on all of them.
And your ASSUMPTION is that he won't even though he has 2 years to add just 5 ppg.... And Herb has + 10min on those stats.
He has (2) more years to MATCH Herb's rookie year #'s.....
He has another (2) years to "leap" to Herb's current #'s...
Oh yeah huge assumption to think Dyson can add 5ppg to his arsenal by the end of 4 additional years after playing just an avg of 20min a game his first 2 seasons as a teenager....
I'm really breaking barriers with that assumption....
quote:
This is all ASSUMPTION Dyson will make the same progression and leap as Herb
And your ASSUMPTION is that he won't even though he has 2 years to add just 5 ppg.... And Herb has + 10min on those stats.
He has (2) more years to MATCH Herb's rookie year #'s.....
He has another (2) years to "leap" to Herb's current #'s...
Oh yeah huge assumption to think Dyson can add 5ppg to his arsenal by the end of 4 additional years after playing just an avg of 20min a game his first 2 seasons as a teenager....
I'm really breaking barriers with that assumption....
This post was edited on 6/19/24 at 12:00 pm
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:59 am to Dantheman504
quote:
Because you are not accounting for age.... We drafted him with what we knew BECAUSE OF HIS AGE. It was because of what he could already do well and have an extra 2+ years than everyone else to develop.
I am but you’re not accounting that part of him being drafted that high was the fact that the hope was his offensive skills were a bit more developed than what we’ve seen. I think age is absolutely important but having a discernible skill set on both sides of the ball is just as well. He wasn’t drafted only because of age. It was because he had shown great skills on defense and adequate offensive skills when he played with the Ignite.
So far he has surpassed his defensive skills as a prospect but has disappointed offensively regardless of his age. I hope he improves offensively but again its not a given.
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:01 pm to Epic Cajun
quote:
I'm not saying that his skills haven't increased, but can you point to his improvement from year 1 to year 2? What makes you believe that he's going to have a vast improvement in the next 2 years? Again, I'm not saying that he won't, I'm just curious why you think that he will.
I’d really like to know why he thinks this as well. Again I hope he does but this is him just assuming these improvements will happen.
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:11 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
am but you’re not accounting that part of him being drafted that high was the fact that the hope was his offensive skills were a bit more developed than what we’ve seen
You actually couldn't be more wrong lol.
He was drafted that high for his ELITE defensive level abilities at 18 y/o.
The hope was that BECAUSE he is only 18 y/o his offense would have enough time to develop in 4-5 years to where he is average offensively at worst by the age of about 23 while already being an elite defender.
Even though we DO have a 21 y/o Elite defender on our roster that's not good enough because "his offense makes me upset" says the People fans.
....Impatient.
quote:
So far he has surpassed his defensive skills as a prospect but has disappointed offensively regardless of his age
No he disappointed YOU and other fans. I'm willing to bet 30 front offices would love to have a 21 y/o player of his abilities because they aren't retarded.
He was valued for his proven DEFENSE and the potential of offense being so young.
He's literally Herb if we were able to sign Herb his sophomore year of college. How fricking bad do you think Herb's offense was then?
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:18 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
He's literally Herb if we were able to sign Herb his sophomore year of college.
2 issues
1. Herb was still a 2nd rounder as a much better player (than Sophomore year Herb)
2. Dyson is going into the 3rd year of his contract, and we have to make decisions pretty soon on re-signing him. If he has this value you're projecting, we might not be able to take the risk on the contract. That's why so many people have argued that if Dyson does develop, it won't be for the Pelicans.
That's the problem with taking guys who need so much development who don't take major steps in year 2. Your argument about patience has merit, but it ignores the fact that we don't have infinite time to be patient.
This post was edited on 6/19/24 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 6/19/24 at 12:19 pm to Dantheman504
quote:
Even though we DO have a 21 y/o Elite defender on our roster that's not good enough because "his offense makes me upset" says the People fans. ....Impatient.
You need to relax. His offense is so unplayable that he couldn’t even get decent minutes in the playoffs. Again I hope he improves but you’re acting like we’re going to sit here developing a prospect for 4-5 years for them to become a playable on offense and defensive stopper role player- when is the last time this team did that? Reality is Dyson likely will be a decent player on another team.
quote:
No he disappointed YOU and other fans. I'm willing to bet 30 front offices would love to have a 21 y/o player of his abilities because they aren't retarded
Sure they would but they aren’t trading a prominent piece or a first round pick for him.
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