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Message
re: Jarrett Allen agrees to extension, take him off Pels trade options
Posted on 8/1/24 at 10:49 am to whatiknowsofar
Posted on 8/1/24 at 10:49 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:
He's a great player
lol wut?
We have different definitions of great.
Miscast? Borrego built an offense that he refused to run. It's his own damn fault.
You sound like a fan, which is fine. I feel like Mac here, but no one other than Pels fans could take this roster with it's current C rotation seriously.
No contending team ever has had this weak of a position group. I mean, it's one thing to have a below average starter, but we literally have fringe roster guys as our starting C.
Larry Nance is fricking Jokic compared to what we have now.
2
Posted on 8/1/24 at 10:59 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:
He's a great player that was miscast last year because we didn't have a real pg. I really think there's a good shot Murray unlocks Ingram.
Whats your definition of a “great” player? Has he been miscast for the past 3 years then? Was he miscast against the suns in the playoffs because he didn’t have a point guard? although he played perfectly good basketball then. The whole not having a point guard defense for him comes from his presser after the season ended where he wants a point guard but it honestly seems like an excuse.
The Ingram disrespect is frustration that hes a talented “good” player that refuses to change the way he plays for the betterment of the team. Part of the frustration lies from him or the fans making excuses for his play which include injuries, Zion availability or not having a point guard. Again I think BI is a good player but the fit for the team just isn’t there with Zion and with the other players we have on the team.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 11:05 am to ghost2most
quote:
have different definitions of great
Ok. I define a great player as someone that can lead an offense and be an effective 3 level scorer. Someone that can shoot and playmake. Ingram can do all of that. Is his shot selection good and has it been the last 3 years? No, but if you don't think he'll be a better player with Murray running point that's silly, and if you think he had a bad year that's silly too.
quote:
No contending team ever has had this weak of a position group. I mean, it's one thing to have a below average starter, but we literally have fringe roster guys as our starting C.
It sounds like players lightly touted are going to have to step up. We haven't had that happen ever before with Herb, Naji, Jose. Yall need to watch some games before just absolutely doubting what the team is capable of. We have a very good trio of Murray Ingram and Z, and an incredible 4th in CJ/Trey
Posted on 8/1/24 at 11:22 am to whatiknowsofar
Best case scenario is Karlo is that guy. He's the only one with a lot of potential.
Jemison I think can be a decent body.
Theis I'm not very high on other than as a guy who can play 10-15 minutes a game.
Missi I have zero expectations for. Even as as our C position is, I don't think he'll get minutes.
Jemison I think can be a decent body.
Theis I'm not very high on other than as a guy who can play 10-15 minutes a game.
Missi I have zero expectations for. Even as as our C position is, I don't think he'll get minutes.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 11:45 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:
Yall need to watch some games before just absolutely doubting what the team is capable of.
I don’t think its fair to criticize someone for doubting a team before seeing them when you are talking about how they’re going to perform well without seeing them as well.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 11:50 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
don’t think its fair to criticize someone for doubting a team
Mfers think we're gonna win 40 games. The criticism is fair. Calling ingram a distraction is wild too
Posted on 8/1/24 at 12:02 pm to ghost2most
The Pels have no starting quality center, BUT one thing you guys aren't taking into account, is how bad the starting lineup with a starting quality center in JV was. Don't get me wrong, JV was essential in winning games for the Pels, but the team didn't really win the starter vs starter minutes and still got 49 wins.
And I'm not "This is fine" meming this away. The Pels should try to trade BI for a Kessler/Collins package, and if that's not available, they should use Hawkins and a pick to grab someone like Kessler or Duren. I just think this Pels team might be better able to overcome that hole in the middle than we think.
Another X factor is drawing fouls. We saw that Zion could eat through a teams bigs over the course of a game when they were getting a good whistle. With Murray as the PG Zion should get more foul calls by catching the defense at a disadvantage when Murray drives. His All Star season in San Antonio Murray was 6th in drives per game and 3rd in assists off of those drives. LINK
Again, the team should still try to trade for a starting caliber center, but it isn't hopeless if they don't.
And I'm not "This is fine" meming this away. The Pels should try to trade BI for a Kessler/Collins package, and if that's not available, they should use Hawkins and a pick to grab someone like Kessler or Duren. I just think this Pels team might be better able to overcome that hole in the middle than we think.
Another X factor is drawing fouls. We saw that Zion could eat through a teams bigs over the course of a game when they were getting a good whistle. With Murray as the PG Zion should get more foul calls by catching the defense at a disadvantage when Murray drives. His All Star season in San Antonio Murray was 6th in drives per game and 3rd in assists off of those drives. LINK
Again, the team should still try to trade for a starting caliber center, but it isn't hopeless if they don't.
This post was edited on 8/1/24 at 12:04 pm
Posted on 8/1/24 at 12:08 pm to TigerinATL
I just hope we force the action and play small no matter how bad the disadvantage is rebounding.
OKC proved that 3 is better than 2. Jonas was absolutely destroying Chet but Chet was hitting 3s so it didn't matter.
That's what we need to commit to. Not playing fringe dudes 30 minutes a game to get torched anyway.
If you're going to give up everything inside, at least go down with your best players and not one of our Centers is even in the top 9 in talent on the team.
Zion
Herb
DJ
Trey
Ingram
CJ
Jose
Hawkins
Ryan
Then who knows...maybe Karlo based on potential.
OKC proved that 3 is better than 2. Jonas was absolutely destroying Chet but Chet was hitting 3s so it didn't matter.
That's what we need to commit to. Not playing fringe dudes 30 minutes a game to get torched anyway.
If you're going to give up everything inside, at least go down with your best players and not one of our Centers is even in the top 9 in talent on the team.
Zion
Herb
DJ
Trey
Ingram
CJ
Jose
Hawkins
Ryan
Then who knows...maybe Karlo based on potential.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 12:20 pm to ghost2most
quote:
No contending team ever has had this weak of a position group. I mean, it's one thing to have a below average starter, but we literally have fringe roster guys as our starting C.
The Warriors have been winning titles with Kevon fricking Looney, a 6'9" 220lb center who plays 20mpg. Looney is a fringe NBA player if he played for any team but the Warriors.
they won their '18 title with Looney playing 18mpg and McGee playing 12mpg. They played 18mpg without a real 5.
They won their '22 title with Looney playing 20mpg and Bjelica paying 10mpg.
and before you say Draymond this and that, that's what Zion needs to be on this team. I'm not saying he needs to be anywhere near as good as Draymond Green defensively, he simply needs to use his strength to defend the 5 position and make the other team pay for leaving a big slow 5 on the court when we are on offense with 5 wing players.
Lebron won his title in Cleveland with 6'9" Tristan Thompson playing 30mpg at the 5, shooting zero 3's and 57% from the FT line. Channing Frye and his no defense played 14mpg. Thompson has done nothing without Lebron.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 12:42 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
The Warriors have been winning titles with Kevon fricking Looney, a 6'9" 220lb center who plays 20mpg. Looney is a fringe NBA player if he played for any team but the Warriors. they won their '18 title with Looney playing 18mpg and McGee playing 12mpg. They played 18mpg without a real 5. They won their '22 title with Looney playing 20mpg and Bjelica paying 10mpg. and before you say Draymond this and that, that's what Zion needs to be on this team. I'm not saying he needs to be anywhere near as good as Draymond Green defensively, he simply needs to use his strength to defend the 5 position and make the other team pay for leaving a big slow 5 on the court when we are on offense with 5 wing players.
Yeah and you completely didn’t mention they had steph, klay and KD in their primes. Lets be realistic- if you’re going to use warriors as an example lets not just gloss over they had the best shooter of all time, best shooting duo of all time, a great scoring machine and potentially 3 HOFers in all 3 of these guys when they played Looney and Mcgee at center.
In your other example with Cleveland they had Lebron and Kyrie.
We don’t have these type of HOF players, so these are really bad comparisons. If we did I could buy the lack of depth and talent we have at center.
This post was edited on 8/1/24 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 8/1/24 at 12:52 pm to whatiknowsofar
quote:
Mfers think we're gonna win 40 games. The criticism is fair.
Yes and we have people comparing our center situation to the warriors in their prime. There is extremism on both sides.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 12:55 pm to Pels_Yaz
I got news for you, if Zion can't get to Lebron/Steph/Jokic level, then we aren't sniffing a title regardless of who's at the 5.
I don't know what the rest of you are looking at or thinking when you construct our roster, but I'm thinking we are trying to win a title in the next 5 years, and the most important variable to winning one is first and foremost Zion becomes an MVP candidate.
How do you expect to win a championship without Zion becoming an all-time great? It's pretty much impossible to do so if he doesn't reach that stratosphere. You have to assume he reaches that point when you talk about how to construct the roster.
I don't know what the rest of you are looking at or thinking when you construct our roster, but I'm thinking we are trying to win a title in the next 5 years, and the most important variable to winning one is first and foremost Zion becomes an MVP candidate.
How do you expect to win a championship without Zion becoming an all-time great? It's pretty much impossible to do so if he doesn't reach that stratosphere. You have to assume he reaches that point when you talk about how to construct the roster.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 12:57 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
We don’t have these type of HOF players
Zion will have to be that player. He's capable of it.
quote:
so these are really bad comparisons
No they aren't. It's just proof that if you have good scoring guards and elite wing defense while playing small you can win. We have both on this team. It's also more proof that center is the least important position on the court in today's nba. Jokic is probably the best player in the league and the nuggets couldn't get out of the 2nd round because they're guards were trash. Embiid hasn't sniffed a conf finals.
This post was edited on 8/1/24 at 12:58 pm
Posted on 8/1/24 at 12:59 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
How do you expect to win a championship without Zion becoming an all-time great? It's pretty much impossible to do so if he doesn't reach that stratosphere. You have to assume he reaches that point when you talk about how to construct the roster.
Do you think his path to that greatness lies in him playing the 5 or at the PF next to third string centers? Agreed Zion has to reach greatness but is this the way to help him achieve that? I just don’t see how this roster construction helps him reach that level.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 1:03 pm to whatiknowsofar
quote:
It's just proof that if you have good scoring guards and elite wing defense while playing small you can win. We have both on this team.
Again warriors had Steph, Klay and KD with Draymond in their prime. Even if say Zion reaches that level, are you now assuming Dejounte and BI or others to reach the level of those other stars? Lets say Herb can be draymond and Zion gets to that elite stature- you still need more from your other guys with the issues at center to be close to a contender.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 1:05 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
you still need more from your other guys with the issues at center to be close to a contender.
You're trying to do a 1:1 comparison when you don't have to. No team in this league is as good as those warriors teams were. Not dallas, not okc, not Denver, etc. The Pels just need to have great guard play and shut down perimeter defense. It's possible. They absolutely have the roster for that today.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 1:11 pm to whatiknowsofar
quote:
No team in this league is as good as those warriors teams were. Not dallas, not okc, not Denver, etc.
You’re absolutely right and thats why its a silly comparison to bring up regarding our center situation. Dallas, OKC and denver have much better centers than us- its not even close.
quote:
The Pels just need to have great guard play and shut down perimeter defense. It's possible.
We had shut down perimeter defense last year with more capable centers. Our guard play has improved with dejounte and he can make up some defensive loss by Dyson. I guess the question is can he make up the talent loss at center? Maybe its possible- depends on matchups. The problem is especially in the west I see a lot of contending teams with great bigs that will give us issues.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 1:28 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
You’re absolutely right and thats why its a silly comparison to bring up regarding our center situation.
Again, not if it's a formula that works for winning a title. This pels team is loaded at guard and wing. We dont have a center but we will run teams out of the building so goddamn fast. It's gonna be fun
Posted on 8/1/24 at 1:38 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:
Do you think his path to that greatness lies in him playing the 5 or at the PF next to third string centers?
That's a great question if you ask it realistically leaving out the "next to thrid string centers". We all know our centers suck. No one is agrueing that.
Me personally, I think it's imperative we find a 5 that fits with Zion. What we currently have, and our draft pick, aren't it, and aren't even close to it.
I also think that Zion needs to play the 5 for at least 16mpg, and what he does at the 5 is a lot more important to winning than what the other 5 does at that position. I also think it's important to have Herb on the court as well as two long wing defenders like Trey and BI when Zion is at the 5.
I wouldn't mind exploring a BI trade where we get back MPJ. He's not a 5, but he's still a good rebounder and weakside defender while being an elite 3 point shooter, and he fits better on both sides of the ball as opposed to BI, especially if Zion takes that next step and Murray takes the reigns as a closer.
To me, Murray/Herb/Trey/MPJ/Zion lineup should be a lineup that can win a title.
The ideal 5 to me would be Jonathon Isaac. The ideal 5 needs to be able to shoot 3's, and also protect the rim while not being a complete disaster on the perimeter. To me perimeter defense from the 5 position is more important than pure rim protection like Kessler.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 1:46 pm to TeddyPadillac
quote:
Me personally, I think it's imperative we find a 5 that fits with Zion. What we currently have, and our draft pick, aren't it, and aren't even close to it. I also think that Zion needs to play the 5 for at least 16mpg, and what he does at the 5 is a lot more important to winning than what the other 5 does at that position. I also think it's important to have Herb on the court as well as two long wing defenders like Trey and BI when Zion is at the 5. I wouldn't mind exploring a BI trade where we get back MPJ. He's not a 5, but he's still a good rebounder and weakside defender while being an elite 3 point shooter, and he fits better on both sides of the ball as opposed to BI, especially if Zion takes that next step and Murray takes the reigns as a closer. To me, Murray/Herb/Trey/MPJ/Zion lineup should be a lineup that can win a title.
I completely agree with you on this. I personally hope Zion learns to play the 5 better as well but he has to consistently rebound. I think thats been his achilles heel- the consistency around rebounding which honestly for a player like him at times is just effort. If we find a way to win his minutes st center- it might unlock something but the problem is I just haven’t seen him consistently be great playing the 5 yet. Its why I have my doubts.
quote:
The ideal 5 to me would be Jonathon Isaac. The ideal 5 needs to be able to shoot 3's, and also protect the rim while not being a complete disaster on the perimeter. To me perimeter defense from the 5 position is more important than pure rim protection like Kessler.
Agreed and its why Orlando locked him up. Its just so hard finding those guys. A crappier verson of Isaac may be Carter Jr though. At this point though, Kessler would dramatically help this team despite some of his offensive issues.
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