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re: CJ has more careless turnovers than any veteran I’ve seen
Posted on 1/3/23 at 1:09 pm to GynoSandberg
Posted on 1/3/23 at 1:09 pm to GynoSandberg
Zion is 12th in the league in turnovers. The 11 ahead of him are mostly all stars. CJ is 30th. The more you have it, the more you use it, although I think what the crowd is saying is that CJs turnovers are generally lazy perimeter mistakes while Zions are on drives (and usually look like a mugging), and I'd have to agree.
2
Posted on 1/3/23 at 1:35 pm to Jojodaddy
I would guess that the number of zions turnovers that happen because of a loose handle (ie not driving into a crowd and getting mugged) and CJ’s lazy passes getting picked off is probably pretty similar.
I think shell’s point is that CJ is crucified for each one of them whereas zion’s aren’t even acknowledged.
I think shell’s point is that CJ is crucified for each one of them whereas zion’s aren’t even acknowledged.
Posted on 1/3/23 at 3:44 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:Weren't my takes ever, but passion can be the true enemy of reason.
I love how the takes early in the season were that willie was being a dumbass and CJ et al need to gtfo out of the way and let zion run the show.
As for a true point guard was hoping a hybrid of Jose and someone else could fit that bill but I think we all got overexcited an overhyped Jose.
I'm just saying Zion running point 35 minutes a game ain't working playoff time and CJ is less effective when ball dominant....IMHO.
This post was edited on 1/3/23 at 4:24 pm
Posted on 1/3/23 at 5:21 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:That's a bingo.
I think shell’s point is that CJ is crucified for each one of them whereas zion’s aren’t even acknowledged
The criticism CJ gers for turnovers us laughably bad compared to our other 2 star players who turn it over more.
And you're correct about the Zion handle and just losing the ball and it going out of bounds. That easily happens as much as a lazy CJ turnover, no one ever criticizes it similarly.
Final point, even if the number of lazy turnovers CJ makes is wayyyyyy higher than Zion or BI(it isn't) it doesn't matter. I'll take 2 lazy turnovers in 1 game over 3 non lazy turnovers every single time.
Posted on 1/3/23 at 5:27 pm to shel311
quote:
Final point, even if the number of lazy turnovers CJ makes is wayyyyyy higher than Zion or BI(it isn't) it doesn't matter. I'll take 2 lazy turnovers in 1 game over 3 non lazy turnovers every single time.
Agree to disagree. One is a skill issue. The other is straight up effort.
I can forgive a lack of skill. It can be worked on and improved.
There is no reason a smart player like CJ should have as many careless turnovers.
Posted on 1/3/23 at 5:30 pm to ghost2most
quote:One is more detrimental to losing, the other isn't. For the Pels, I'll take the one that doesn't hurt us more, not sure why you'd openly want more turnovers as opposed to less.
Agree to disagree. One is a skill issue. The other is straight up effort.
But again, even that hypothetical is one based on nothing realistic, you know Zion has just as many careless turnovers as CJ.
Posted on 1/3/23 at 5:36 pm to Jojodaddy
quote:
more you have it, the more you use it, although I think what the crowd is saying is that CJs turnovers are generally lazy perimeter mistakes while Zions are on drives (and usually look like a mugging), and I'd have to agree.
Main ball handlers and facilitators are always susceptible to the TO. If you think CJs are egregious then you must question Zion’s ability to protect the ball
Reality it is, it’s part of the game if you want them to remain on the offensive and attacking defenses. You can’t have one without the other. If they stopped being aggressive people would be bitching about that. Some people can’t see the Forrest for the trees
Posted on 1/3/23 at 7:58 pm to GynoSandberg
Trey is used to playing in a system where the ball moves. The ball doesn't move with the pelicans. You have 3 ball dominant players who need the ball. Two are them should be ball dominant which is BI and Zion.
You have shooters but the ball gets stuck and that goes back to coaching.
You have shooters but the ball gets stuck and that goes back to coaching.
Posted on 1/3/23 at 8:09 pm to brentsura
quote:
The ball doesn't move with the pelicans
The team is 9th in assists. And a whopping .5 away from being top 5. Try again.
Posted on 1/3/23 at 8:32 pm to whatiknowsofar
Not a huge differential, but assist are trending down and turnovers trending up over the last 6 weeks. I'm not sure Pels need another point guard but clearly need to acknowledge the load they've placed on Zion since he came back from Covid. I really would like to see Dyson get some run at point, he'd have to be more aggressive but he exhibits a good sense on how to organize an offense and has demonstrated he can get in the paint off the dribble, and hit cutters on the move.
Posted on 1/5/23 at 10:34 am to Pistol44
quote:
CJ McCollum in his last 10 Games:
46.6 FG %
51.1 3PT %
82.9 FT %
26.0 PPG
6.9 AST
4.2 REB
Ho hum...
Posted on 1/5/23 at 10:52 am to shel311
He's been great.
Posted on 1/5/23 at 10:53 am to whatiknowsofar
quote:
The team is 9th in assists. And a whopping .5 away from being top 5. Try again.
We move to 5th in Assists in the 4th Quarter and 3rd in PTS. 6th fewest in turnovers.
Not bad considering we don't have a traditional point guard closing out games most of the time.
Posted on 1/5/23 at 10:57 am to shel311
CJ is balling.
Need Herb to find some stroke or start attacking the rim, thankfully he is back to his disrupting self on D. Need him to lock up KD as much as possible. I actually think we have a good shot to beat the Nets on Friday, and that is thanks to CJ more than anything.
Need Herb to find some stroke or start attacking the rim, thankfully he is back to his disrupting self on D. Need him to lock up KD as much as possible. I actually think we have a good shot to beat the Nets on Friday, and that is thanks to CJ more than anything.
This post was edited on 1/5/23 at 10:58 am
Posted on 1/5/23 at 11:17 am to shel311
quote:
CJ McCollum in his last 10 Games:
46.6 FG %
51.1 3PT %
82.9 FT %
26.0 PPG
6.9 AST
4.2 REB
Ho hum..
6-4 Record with
W - Rockets, 76ers, Thunder, T-Wolves, Spurs, Pacers
L - 76ers, Grizz, Bucks, Suns
This, in my opinion, is more telling than anything. Pels have taken care of business against the also-rans but have had difficulty against the better teams and the schedule toughens up considerably this month.
The teams' defense will have to be on-point to get through this patch but observation with an adequate sample indicates the offense is at its best in transition along with player and ball movement in half-court sets. Its here where, again in my opinion, that the team is not consistent and often falls out of rhythm standing and watching players operate in isolation.
Posted on 1/5/23 at 11:27 am to Pistol44
quote:
6-4 Record with
W - Rockets, 76ers, Thunder, T-Wolves, Spurs, Pacers
L - 76ers, Grizz, Bucks, Suns
This, in my opinion, is more telling than anything. Pels have taken care of business against the also-rans
And playoff teams including a top 4 seed.
quote:
but have had difficulty against the better teams and the schedule toughens up considerably this month.
One of those losses was a road b2b and we lost zion in another.
Posted on 1/5/23 at 11:29 am to Pistol44
Without context, that is misleading. 3 of the 4 losses you cite were on the road against some of the best teams at their house.
No one is dominant on the road with the exception of Brooklyn. Not to mention Philly and Phoenix were runbacks in a short period of time. And Memphis in a road b2b.
If we protect home court like we've been doing during this stretch and win games we're supposed to on the road... until our stars return, we'll be in phenomenal shape.
CJ will be the one leading us to wins in the meantime. You look at all the top teams in the league, they struggle on the road against the good teams. We're no different.
No one is dominant on the road with the exception of Brooklyn. Not to mention Philly and Phoenix were runbacks in a short period of time. And Memphis in a road b2b.
If we protect home court like we've been doing during this stretch and win games we're supposed to on the road... until our stars return, we'll be in phenomenal shape.
CJ will be the one leading us to wins in the meantime. You look at all the top teams in the league, they struggle on the road against the good teams. We're no different.
This post was edited on 1/5/23 at 11:32 am
Posted on 1/5/23 at 12:01 pm to whatiknowsofar
Schedule is the schedule, you only play who and when you're scheduled to play for sure. My point being though that we'll likely know a lot more about the Pels at the end of the month. For the record, I think we have the team to make a run THIS YEAR, however they need to improve in order for that to happen.
At some point the team will have to understand how to operate with CJ, BI, and Zion. When you have players of that caliber, it'll be paramount to understand how to integrate them for maximum effectiveness. Again, with May/June in mind.
Might just be me but I clearly see how the offense operates when BI or Dyson are at the helm. Certainly not taking away anything from CJ or Zion (because they'll eat regardless) but we tend to get easier buckets (not looks) because players are moving and get the ball in rhythm or better yet cutting to the bucket and receiving the ball while on the move. Lagniappe is that it also tends to keep players engaged and transfers well to the defensive side of the ball.
For the Pels to operate at maximum efficiency, I believe BI, Zion, and CJ will have to be better without the ball in their hands. Nothing like examples set from your leaders. Again, not saying there won't be times when you just let them cook.
*I know the young man is only 19 and has other-worldly talent around him but I'm going to keep an eye on Dyson and how he operates at the point.
At some point the team will have to understand how to operate with CJ, BI, and Zion. When you have players of that caliber, it'll be paramount to understand how to integrate them for maximum effectiveness. Again, with May/June in mind.
Might just be me but I clearly see how the offense operates when BI or Dyson are at the helm. Certainly not taking away anything from CJ or Zion (because they'll eat regardless) but we tend to get easier buckets (not looks) because players are moving and get the ball in rhythm or better yet cutting to the bucket and receiving the ball while on the move. Lagniappe is that it also tends to keep players engaged and transfers well to the defensive side of the ball.
For the Pels to operate at maximum efficiency, I believe BI, Zion, and CJ will have to be better without the ball in their hands. Nothing like examples set from your leaders. Again, not saying there won't be times when you just let them cook.
*I know the young man is only 19 and has other-worldly talent around him but I'm going to keep an eye on Dyson and how he operates at the point.
This post was edited on 1/5/23 at 12:03 pm
Posted on 1/5/23 at 12:25 pm to bengalmd
It's a double-edged sword with CJ and his turnovers. He is averaging a career high in assists at 6.0 per game, but he also has the highest number of turnovers per game in his career.
He just seems to make them at the absolute worst time. I feel like he knows this, and hopefully this is something he is working on in the lab.
He just seems to make them at the absolute worst time. I feel like he knows this, and hopefully this is something he is working on in the lab.
Posted on 1/5/23 at 12:29 pm to brentsura
quote:
The ball doesn't move with the pelicans
What an absolutely terrible take.
quote:
Trey is used to playing in a system where the ball moves
And a completely made up take.
This post was edited on 1/5/23 at 12:31 pm
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