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Message
re: Can AD lead this team to a championship?
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:09 pm to Soggymoss
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:09 pm to Soggymoss
quote:You should stop listening to them. You named Lebron and Westbrook. Do you realize Westbrook has no titles, and Lebron won 0 titles before playing alongside another top 5 player and another legit top 15 ish dude? See where I'm going with this? Why would you think the difference is that "dog" and not those good players alongside them?
I was listening to NBA radio yesterday and they were discussing AD. Everyone was pretty much in agreement that if you have AD as the best player on your team, you will not win a championship, simply because he doesn't have that "dog" mentality in him like a Westbrook/Lebron type.
KD had the same exact "no dog" in him tag too, how's that working out?
Which brings me to a greater point, I say this forgetting which board I said it on the other day so I apologize if I'm repeating something I said on this board, what exactly makes KD clearcut better than AD? Sure he can score the ball like crazy, but AD puts up big numbers efficiently too and is obviously better than KD in many other facets too. When it comes down to it, the only real reason KD is thought of as better than AD is because he's played his entire career alongside another MVP, or 2.
Put KD on the Pels and AD the Thunder/Warriors the past 7 years, and there's likely virtually no one saying KD is the better player.
quote:Same thing they said about Lebron for almost a decade.
I have to agree with them, he doesnt seem like the type of leader a team needs to win a championship. He flashes that potential, but it's like he cant sustain that mentality for a full season, or even a full month+.
quote:Except, it's not a slam dunk that it's even correct.
With that said, would it be best to cut bait,
This post was edited on 12/12/18 at 1:19 pm
1
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:14 pm to Crewz
quote:This is absurd.
AD can not be the best player on a title winning team
Name all the players in AD's tier in terms of the numbers he's put up who haven't led their team to a title.
Now tell me what's the REAL difference between AD and those guys. Please go over the difference in teams/supporting casts before just defaulting to the tired eye test/has no dog in him line that people go to. That's just lazy commentary.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:17 pm to Soggymoss
quote:To try to acquire the talent needed to compete?
If he doesnt have the talent level to elevate an entire team, then what's the point of holding on to him?
quote:The Clippers aren't really that good.
Trade him now, get a haul back of good players, and make ourselves a deep team like the clips, Raptors and Celtics.
The Celtics have acquired an almost once in a lifetime treasure trove of assets we won't ever acquire. The Raptors have their AD, and his name is Kawhi, why we would trade ours right now?
quote:Unrealistic
AD to Philly, Simmons, Chandler, Fultz and 2 1sts to NOLA
quote:Klay and Dray will be gone in free agency just as soon as AD will.
AD and Hill to GS, Klay, Draymond, Cook to NOLA
quote:Does not make us better than having AD
AD and Hill to LAC, Gallinari, Harris, SGA to NOLA
quote:Definitely makes us much worse.
AD to LAL, Ingram, Ball, Kuzma and KCP to NOLA
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:17 pm to shel311
KD is a better passer, ballhandler, off the dribble player than AD.
Durant is a very good defensive player though not ADs level.
ADs weak spots are just a little bigger than KD as 1v1 player
Put AD on Dubs makes life a little easier for LBJ’s Cavs teams. A little.
AD wouldn’t be draining pull up 30+footers in LeBrons grill.
That being said, AD on 2016 Dubs instead of Barnes or Bogut? Cleveland isn’t scoring inside.
AD and KD don’t play the same position, although there is some crossover.
Durant is a very good defensive player though not ADs level.
ADs weak spots are just a little bigger than KD as 1v1 player
Put AD on Dubs makes life a little easier for LBJ’s Cavs teams. A little.
AD wouldn’t be draining pull up 30+footers in LeBrons grill.
That being said, AD on 2016 Dubs instead of Barnes or Bogut? Cleveland isn’t scoring inside.
AD and KD don’t play the same position, although there is some crossover.
This post was edited on 12/12/18 at 1:19 pm
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:19 pm to Crewz
quote:
I hope you understand how bad your Westbrook argument is.
A fire must have oxygen to be a fire, but that doesn't mean that wherever there is oxygen, there will be fire.
Pointing to Westbrook not having won a title as some sort of evidence that champions don't need a killer mentality is poor logic.
Where did I say that a team doesnt need a killer mentality?
My statement about Westbrook wasnt an argument, I was stating the fact that Westbrook hasn't won a championship, much less one on his own.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:24 pm to Crewz
quote:I love how you keep saying this while not realizing every single thing said in this thread was said about Lebron for years, but you think Lebron found that "dog" coincidentally I guess when he found Wade and Bosh?
I still think it will take more than that. With that said, maybe if he gets with Lebron by next season he can win one. Lebron is a different level.
That's not a level of posting that will allow you into that elite poster message board you speak of, that's for sure.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:26 pm to ThanosIsADemocrat
quote:All fair but my main points are:
KD is a better passer, ballhandler, off the dribble player than AD.
Durant is a very good defensive player though not ADs level.
ADs weak spots are just a little bigger than KD as 1v1 player
Put AD on Dubs makes life a little easier for LBJ’s Cavs teams. A little.
AD wouldn’t be draining pull up 30+footers in LeBrons grill.
That being said, AD on 2016 Dubs instead of Barnes or Bogut? Cleveland isn’t scoring inside.
AD and KD don’t play the same position, although there is some crossover.
1. The only reason it's not even a question as to who is better is because KD has gone deeper in the playoffs, because he's played with better players
2. Swap their casts, and virtually everyone is not even debating because it is a given that AD is better than KD.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:27 pm to shel311
quote:
AD can not be the best player on a title winning team
This is absurd.
No it's not. You just pointed out how LeBron and KD never won anything until they got paired with comparable star players. Maybe he can be the best in a 1A/1B manner like what we hoped AD/DC could have become, but he needs more than Jrue/Randle and a bunch of scrubs around him.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:31 pm to TigerinATL
quote:And so would any of those players. That does not make the issue AD, but a combination of management that has constructed this team and a small market that is not enticing to other stars.
No it's not. You just pointed out how LeBron and KD never won anything until they got paired with comparable star players. Maybe he can be the best in a 1A/1B manner like what we hoped AD/DC could have become, but he needs more than Jrue/Randle and a bunch of scrubs around him.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:31 pm to TigerinATL
quote:Right, I pointed out how many said the same things about Lebron and then he went on to win 3 titles as the clearcut best player on the team. Why are you insinuating that doesn't help prove my point?
You just pointed out how LeBron and KD never won anything until they got paired with comparable star players.
quote:Taking GS out of the mix, name all the players not named Lebron arguably the GOAT who don't need any more than what we have now?
but he needs more than Jrue/Randle and a bunch of scrubs around him
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:37 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
If the Pels don't win the lottery post trade then the best player you get will be via the trade. So really what people should be looking at is who do they want their best player to be.
Ben Simmons
Jayson Tatum
Brandon Ingram
I'd throw Kristaps Porzingas in that list. KP + (Lee/Hardaway) + NYK unprotected 2019 is something both teams should seriously consider.
The Knicks would have enough room for another max contract and Davis immediately puts the Knicks in a better position to get Durant, Irving, or Kemba.
Pelicans would be able to lock up Porzingas for 5 years at Otto Porter salary and have the potential to get lucky in the lottery. They would also have the space to be players in 2020 free agency.
This wouldn't beat a hypothetical offer of Tatum, Brown/Hayward/Rozier, and the Kings and grizzlies picks. But I find that speculation to be fanciful.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:44 pm to shel311
quote:
Taking GS out of the mix, name all the players not named Lebron
You can't take them out of the mix. That's like going to the Jordan era and saying "Taking Jordan out of the mix"...
quote:
Why are you insinuating that doesn't help prove my point?
You're right in that AD isn't on a different tier than KD but wrong in that he doesn't need more star power to win. The only hope this current build has if you only add starter level players to the mix is having Randle and Jrue continue to blow up and become star level players, which very well could happen. Keeping it all together while upgrading the scrubs will be the tricky part.
This post was edited on 12/12/18 at 1:45 pm
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:48 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
You can't take them out of the mix
If GS is truly the barometer for us to make decisions on whether AD is good enough to lead us to a title and we're going to then maybe decide to deal him, name me all the players we can realistically obtain that would then flip that upside down and then make us good enough to beat GS?
Hell, it doesn't even have to be realistic, name me all the unrealistic 2 team trades we can make that can allow us to beat GS.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:54 pm to shel311
You have to wait them out. The baseball intermission/gambling suspension is the only thing that slowed down the Jordan era. Fortunately Golden State is showing cracks and there is a lot of smoke around KD moving on.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:57 pm to TigerinATL
This right here. The only realistic way to beat them is to wait them out. While we have AD we cannot and will not wait them out because of the pressure of trying to keep him happy.
If we build a young team that has a year or 2 to develop, we essentially are building while waiting them out, and possibly adding another lottery pick or 2 in the process.
If we build a young team that has a year or 2 to develop, we essentially are building while waiting them out, and possibly adding another lottery pick or 2 in the process.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 1:59 pm to TigerinATL
quote:Agreed, and I rather wait them out with AD then without AD.
You have to wait them out.
I wouldn't entertain a trade for AD until we can offer him his next extension, and he turns it down. No reason to until then.
But back to your main point, you're using GS's greatness as the barometer for whether AD can lead us to a title, it's just disingenuous IMO.
quote:Then i'd much rather take my chances with AD as opposed to a lesser group of players.
Fortunately Golden State is showing cracks and there is a lot of smoke around KD moving on.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 2:01 pm to shel311
How is AD for Simmons, Chandler, Fultz and 2 1-sts unrealistic? Philly has Butler, and Simmons role has declined since they acquired Butler. It would essentially be a AD for Simmons and 2 1sts swap, as Chandler and Fultz are throw ins for salary.
As far as the LAL trade, it may not necessarily make us better this year, but we are a better team long term.
As far as the LAL trade, it may not necessarily make us better this year, but we are a better team long term.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 2:09 pm to Soggymoss
quote:First, because New Orleans isn't shopping AD.
How is AD for Simmons, Chandler, Fultz and 2 1-sts unrealistic? Philly has Butler, and Simmons role has declined since they acquired Butler. It would essentially be a AD for Simmons and 2 1sts swap, as Chandler and Fultz are throw ins for salary.
Second, are you sure AD will extend in Philly? Or will he opt out after next season and head to LA? You think Philly will make that deal without any assurance AD will stay, just give up Simmons for possibly 1 season of AD?
quote:As compared to if we had AD? Hell no.
As far as the LAL trade, it may not necessarily make us better this year, but we are a better team long term.
Posted on 12/12/18 at 2:09 pm to shel311
quote:
I rather wait them out with AD then without AD.
I'm not for trading AD prematurely. All the people clamoring for Tatum today are nuts. He needs to demand it and even then I'd probably make him refuse to sign the big money extension before I think it's time.
This post was edited on 12/12/18 at 2:10 pm
Posted on 12/12/18 at 2:12 pm to TigerinATL
quote:I agree, but we somehow get way off track from our original debate regarding whether AD can lead a team to a title.
I'm not for trading AD prematurely. All the people clamoring for Tatum today are nuts. He needs to demand it and even then I'd probably make him refuse to sign the big money extension before I think it's time.
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