This will blow your mind. 2 seemingly dissimilar songs

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actually nearly identical

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hahahaha

There are only 12 notes. Any song you want to pick out, to make an example with, is going to have hundreds of songs with similar progressions. That's not the same as being identical.

They aren't wholly dissimilar because they both have roots in blues. Especially in the technique of mixing major and minor thirds. Both play with the flat third in the melody against the major tonic chord. This is an old blues technique and one of the things that gives each its bluesy flavor.

But the chord progressions are only vaguely related.

The chorus for Gimme Shelter (I will put this is C Major for clarity although the original track is in C#):

C / / / |Bb / / / |Ab / / / |Ab / Bb /|

C / / / |Bb / / / |Ab / / / |Ab / Bb /|


The chorus for TCB (it is in C):

C / / / |Bb / / / |F / / / |C / / /|

C / / / |Bb / / / |F / / / |C / / /|

Notice the chord difference, including the return to the tonic. Gimme Shelter does not return to its tonic until the repeat of the progression whereas TCB returns at the end each progression.

In addition, the use of the Ab chord in Gimme Shelter pulls the tonality of the primarily mixolydian mode by introducing both the flat 6th and the flat 3th of the parallel minor. At times the song will also use alternation between the Ab and Eb chords in the turn around. Somewhat like an extended V-I cadence in an orchestral piece. To my ear this makes the tonal center somewhat ambiguous. Is it really in C major or is it in Ab Major and the C chord is really an altered III chord of the key? Either way, it's the chromatic mediant relationship that adds that spice (note: even the Eb is a chromatic mediant with C). IMO these are some of the reasons the song feels unsettled and gives it a sound that TCB does not have. TCB stays firmly in mixolydian for most of the song with the addition of the blue note in the melody mentioned above. It's mode/tonal center is unambiguous.




As for the verses. Gimme Shelter stays on one chord (again in C major for clarity):
C / / / |C / / / |C / / / |C / / /|
C / / / |C / / / |C / / / |C / / /|

In TCB, the progression for the verse is exactly the same as the chorus. Only the bridge is different when it finally introduces a bIII chord breaking the mixolydian for 8 bars (C-F-Eb-Bb) before returning to the main progression for the solo.

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The chorus for Gimme Shelter (I will put this is C Major for clarity although the original track is in C#):

C / / / |Bb / / / |Ab / / / |Ab / Bb /|

C / / / |Bb / / / |Ab / / / |Ab / Bb /|


The chorus for TCB (it is in C):

C / / / |Bb / / / |F / / / |C / / /|

C / / / |Bb / / / |F / / / |C / / /|

Notice the chord difference, including the return to the tonic. Gimme Shelter does not return to its tonic until the repeat of the progression whereas TCB returns at the end each progression.

In addition, the use of the Ab chord in Gimme Shelter pulls the tonality of the primarily mixolydian mode by introducing both the flat 6th and the flat 3th of the parallel minor. At times the song will also use alternation between the Ab and Eb chords in the turn around. Somewhat like an extended V-I cadence in an orchestral piece. To my ear this makes the tonal center somewhat ambiguous. Is it really in C major or is it in Ab Major and the C chord is really an altered III chord of the key? Either way, it's the chromatic mediant relationship that adds that spice (note: even the Eb is a chromatic mediant with C). IMO these are some of the reasons the song feels unsettled and gives it a sound that TCB does not have. TCB stays firmly in mixolydian for most of the song with the addition of the blue note in the melody mentioned above. It's mode/tonal center is unambiguous.

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+1

Thinking TCB is in F isn't that far off really. And in some ways it could be argued that it is in F. I don't know if you are familiar with modes, but C Mixolydian is the 5th mode of F (Ionian). In other words, they have the same notes. IMO, what separates them is their context. Mixolydian is very common in blues. The bVII (in this case, the Bb) acting as a replacement for the V. It provides less of a pull than the V to the tonic and fits well in mixo. What leads me to feel TCB in C is that the C is played often as the resting spot. It starts there, goes away and returns to it. This gives me the feeling that it is "home".

In some ways it is like the white dress/blue dress or rabbit/duck pictures. What you perceive is dependent on several factors including the context of the progression as well as one's own biases. Adam Neely posed the question"is Sweet Home Alabama in D or G"?

There were almost as many different opinions as the white dress/blue dress picture. SHA actaully uses a very similar progression as TCB. The main difference in the chord is SHA in essence stays on the G for twice as long as the D or C chord. D-C-G-G (in contrast TCB would be D-C-G-D in this key although the harmonic periodicity of TCB is twice as as long). Here I hear it more as in the key of G. Adam hears D. Most of the time if I play through the song, stopping on the D doesn't feel final to me. The G usually feels more complete to my ear. Although there are times the D does feel final. It's an odd thing...like the rabbit/duck picture. SHA also uses the flat 3 of the first chord against a major tonality....just like TCB.

What I think it really comes down to is that in this tradition, there is ambiguity of the tonal center because of use of mixo AND the use of the flat 3 against a major chord. For SHA, the song moves back and forth between G Maj and D Mixo. Same notes (with the addition of the Fnat). For me what separates SHA and TCB is what is the context. The chord that appears twice as often as the others in the progression is the "home" chord to my ear. For others, it may not. IMO this ambiguity is why they did fade outs on the original recordings of both songs. Although live, both bands do end on a final chord....SHA on a G and TCB on a C.

One thing I don't think gets mentioned enough about music theory, especially to people new to it.... often there is not only one answer. People debate the function of music all the time. Very learned people will disagree mightily about something (12 Tone had something about how an augmented 6th chord can function like a tritone substitution of a ii in a cadence. There apparently was a LOT of disagreement about certain specifics). A lot of it is contextual and dependent on the observer's own experience/bias...just like the rabbit/duck picture.

so what have we learned here?

1) the two songs are not in any way identical
2) a trained musical ear only makes that more obvious
3) no minds were blown by this discussion

great thread OP

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+1

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imma call bullshite