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Started By
Message
PLEK for fretted instruments
Posted on 11/7/22 at 10:42 am
Posted on 11/7/22 at 10:42 am
Someone asked about more information about PLEK for fret work on fretted instruments. I figured I'd compile some info and opine. Grab your beverage of choice and sit so you can take in and absorb everything. It's a LONG read and your mileage truly varies here.
BEFORE we get started, I was trained in traditional fret work at one of America's most respected luthiery schools. I've been doing fretwork traditionally for decades. I do not own a PLEK and I've never hired anyone to PLEK anything. I'd love to have a PLEK for my shop, but I have no plans at this point to ever acquire one. I will get into all the whys later.
In simple terms, PLEK is a computerized fret leveling tool housed in an encasing resembling an old skool phone booth. Computers "read" the guitar's fretboard under string tension and then "level" the frets to computerized perfection.
If you don't know what fret leveling is, or why it matters, I offer this column I penned on it several years ago for my website.
What is fret leveling and why should you care?
----------------
PLEK: This is a PLEK machine. There are two in Louisiana that I know of, both in greater New Orleans (Strange Guitarworks in NOLA, C&M Music in Kenner).
Strange has these articles that superbly describe the machine, what it does, its advantages and such. Here are links. Read and comprehend both, they are EXCELLENT reads.
An Introduction to PLEK
The Secret of the PLEK Machine
---------------
My thoughts ...
PLEK is an incredible tool and I'd be lying if I didn't admit I would love to have one. But a talented, experienced tech can too closely match the precision of a PLEK and COMPLETELY match the end-user satisfaction in and for the very great majority of players.
PLEK believers will boast about precision to thousands of an inch. It's true and it's impressive for sure. But that precision can go out the door when most wooden instruments leave the room where PLEK occurred. Wooden instruments, even painted and subsequently "sealed" ones, react and "move" in response to the temperature and humidity around them. Skewing the tight tolerance one paid PLEK'ed money to obtain. Unless you are dealing with a totally synthetic instrument that is impervious to temp and humidity, it's a somewhat weightless argument, more a sales pitch actually.
In Utopia, what will thousands of an inch of precision get you? Typically, action so low it's practically unplayable for most players who like to bend their strings, who have a heavily-radiused vintage Fender-style fingerboard, or for those who play with any degree of emotion in or under their hands.
A good fret tech and his or her properly leveled frets should easily get an electric guitar neck dialed in to action (gap from bottom of string to acme of fret crown) of about 3/64" (high E) to 4/64" (low E) unfretted at the 12th fret as part of a proper set-up. Slightly higher in 64th of an inch for acoustics and for basses. I personally service approximately one thousand guitars annually and I can vouch that the action levels I describe are PERFECT for most players.
And those specs push the limit as far as clean playing up and down the neck for most players. Lower action simply doesn't mix with player emotion. No fret leveling finesse, no matter how it's applied, can compensate for a player who is heavy handed at times. It will buzz, it will choke, it will snort. That's not fretwork finesse, that's general physics. Owners of vintage and VRI Strats and Jazzmasters with very curved fingerboards and small frets? Nope, forget it.
I think (and I stand to be corrected if needed) that PLEK does its fingerboard "reading" and then its fret grinding with the guitar in the booth in an upright position (guitar neck and headstock perfectly vertical), not a player's playing position. Guitar and bass necks react to gravity differently in those two physical positions, even under string tension. Again, potentially skewed results for which one paid PLEK-precision money. I'm not saying traditional fretwork is better in this scenario, I'm just saying PLEK is not necessarily better in this scenario.
I'm under the impression PLEK cannot install frets, refret or fix poorly seated frets. I'm also under the impression it does not "polish" frets to final smoothness. Those are all jobs for a tech or the PLEK operator, who also has set-up work to do before and after PLEK occurs. AKA, "human" components and guaranteed margins of error within the PLEK process.
On that note, I have had several guitars in my shop on which I have had to do traditional fretwork AFTER a PLEK machine botched its fret bed. It is not a put-guitar-in, take-guitar-out process - the operator MUST know something about guitars, set-ups, frets and especially the PLEK itself. For the record, neither Strange nor C&M did the PLEK work in the botched jobs I describe.
In many cases, PLEK costs the end user more than a traditional fret level, recrown and polish from a qualified tech. I'm told about $200 and up per job. It's more expensive than a traditional fret level (in my shop at least) and it's surely more than what I've charged to fix a poorly-PLEK'ed fret bed.
PLEK jobs are not cheap because someone has to reimburse the shop indirectly for their investment. The last time I personally priced the machine, I was told it would cost me about $120,000, not including recurring costs for calibration, lubrication and sharpening services, employee training, machine and/or software updates/upgrades, etc. We'll just say it's a six-figure investment and run with that and all agree it ain't cheap.
Where does PLEK beat a guy like me? When you have a high volume of fretwork and not enough talented manpower to meet demand. A shop can sink six figures into a Plek machine once, versus six figures into two or three workers' RECURRING salaries.
Again, I'd love to have one. If I manufactured guitars, I'd own a PLEK. If I averaged 4 or more fret level jobs daily, I'd have a PLEK. If I had six figures to blow and could spare and find the room in my tiny shop for the booth, I'd get a PLEK.
And especially, if I needed a marketing and promotion boon for my business, I'd get a PLEK. So many people are convinced PLEK is the be-all, end-all best thing ever for fretwork. I absolutely disagree and I can defend my position with facts and experience all day every day. But it would be faster and easier to lure those folks in with a PLEK versus trying to educate and enlighten them otherwise haha.
If you want PLEK for your axe, by all means get it, it's good stuff for sure. I simply know what a good tech's hands, eyes, tooling and experience can do too, and that no machine to date can render him or her obsolete.
The best takeaway from this diatribe I typed is if you have a great bench tech and/or a great PLEK operator, you really can't pick wrong for your fret bed.
Thanks for your time and patience and I hope I helped out.
BEFORE we get started, I was trained in traditional fret work at one of America's most respected luthiery schools. I've been doing fretwork traditionally for decades. I do not own a PLEK and I've never hired anyone to PLEK anything. I'd love to have a PLEK for my shop, but I have no plans at this point to ever acquire one. I will get into all the whys later.
In simple terms, PLEK is a computerized fret leveling tool housed in an encasing resembling an old skool phone booth. Computers "read" the guitar's fretboard under string tension and then "level" the frets to computerized perfection.
If you don't know what fret leveling is, or why it matters, I offer this column I penned on it several years ago for my website.
What is fret leveling and why should you care?
----------------
PLEK: This is a PLEK machine. There are two in Louisiana that I know of, both in greater New Orleans (Strange Guitarworks in NOLA, C&M Music in Kenner).
Strange has these articles that superbly describe the machine, what it does, its advantages and such. Here are links. Read and comprehend both, they are EXCELLENT reads.
An Introduction to PLEK
The Secret of the PLEK Machine
---------------
My thoughts ...
PLEK is an incredible tool and I'd be lying if I didn't admit I would love to have one. But a talented, experienced tech can too closely match the precision of a PLEK and COMPLETELY match the end-user satisfaction in and for the very great majority of players.
PLEK believers will boast about precision to thousands of an inch. It's true and it's impressive for sure. But that precision can go out the door when most wooden instruments leave the room where PLEK occurred. Wooden instruments, even painted and subsequently "sealed" ones, react and "move" in response to the temperature and humidity around them. Skewing the tight tolerance one paid PLEK'ed money to obtain. Unless you are dealing with a totally synthetic instrument that is impervious to temp and humidity, it's a somewhat weightless argument, more a sales pitch actually.
In Utopia, what will thousands of an inch of precision get you? Typically, action so low it's practically unplayable for most players who like to bend their strings, who have a heavily-radiused vintage Fender-style fingerboard, or for those who play with any degree of emotion in or under their hands.
A good fret tech and his or her properly leveled frets should easily get an electric guitar neck dialed in to action (gap from bottom of string to acme of fret crown) of about 3/64" (high E) to 4/64" (low E) unfretted at the 12th fret as part of a proper set-up. Slightly higher in 64th of an inch for acoustics and for basses. I personally service approximately one thousand guitars annually and I can vouch that the action levels I describe are PERFECT for most players.
And those specs push the limit as far as clean playing up and down the neck for most players. Lower action simply doesn't mix with player emotion. No fret leveling finesse, no matter how it's applied, can compensate for a player who is heavy handed at times. It will buzz, it will choke, it will snort. That's not fretwork finesse, that's general physics. Owners of vintage and VRI Strats and Jazzmasters with very curved fingerboards and small frets? Nope, forget it.
I think (and I stand to be corrected if needed) that PLEK does its fingerboard "reading" and then its fret grinding with the guitar in the booth in an upright position (guitar neck and headstock perfectly vertical), not a player's playing position. Guitar and bass necks react to gravity differently in those two physical positions, even under string tension. Again, potentially skewed results for which one paid PLEK-precision money. I'm not saying traditional fretwork is better in this scenario, I'm just saying PLEK is not necessarily better in this scenario.
I'm under the impression PLEK cannot install frets, refret or fix poorly seated frets. I'm also under the impression it does not "polish" frets to final smoothness. Those are all jobs for a tech or the PLEK operator, who also has set-up work to do before and after PLEK occurs. AKA, "human" components and guaranteed margins of error within the PLEK process.
On that note, I have had several guitars in my shop on which I have had to do traditional fretwork AFTER a PLEK machine botched its fret bed. It is not a put-guitar-in, take-guitar-out process - the operator MUST know something about guitars, set-ups, frets and especially the PLEK itself. For the record, neither Strange nor C&M did the PLEK work in the botched jobs I describe.
In many cases, PLEK costs the end user more than a traditional fret level, recrown and polish from a qualified tech. I'm told about $200 and up per job. It's more expensive than a traditional fret level (in my shop at least) and it's surely more than what I've charged to fix a poorly-PLEK'ed fret bed.
PLEK jobs are not cheap because someone has to reimburse the shop indirectly for their investment. The last time I personally priced the machine, I was told it would cost me about $120,000, not including recurring costs for calibration, lubrication and sharpening services, employee training, machine and/or software updates/upgrades, etc. We'll just say it's a six-figure investment and run with that and all agree it ain't cheap.
Where does PLEK beat a guy like me? When you have a high volume of fretwork and not enough talented manpower to meet demand. A shop can sink six figures into a Plek machine once, versus six figures into two or three workers' RECURRING salaries.
Again, I'd love to have one. If I manufactured guitars, I'd own a PLEK. If I averaged 4 or more fret level jobs daily, I'd have a PLEK. If I had six figures to blow and could spare and find the room in my tiny shop for the booth, I'd get a PLEK.
And especially, if I needed a marketing and promotion boon for my business, I'd get a PLEK. So many people are convinced PLEK is the be-all, end-all best thing ever for fretwork. I absolutely disagree and I can defend my position with facts and experience all day every day. But it would be faster and easier to lure those folks in with a PLEK versus trying to educate and enlighten them otherwise haha.
If you want PLEK for your axe, by all means get it, it's good stuff for sure. I simply know what a good tech's hands, eyes, tooling and experience can do too, and that no machine to date can render him or her obsolete.
The best takeaway from this diatribe I typed is if you have a great bench tech and/or a great PLEK operator, you really can't pick wrong for your fret bed.
Thanks for your time and patience and I hope I helped out.
This post was edited on 11/7/22 at 11:31 am
Posted on 11/7/22 at 5:14 pm to TheFretShack
It's just a CNC machine. It's only as good as the guy who is operating it, but if he knows what he's doing, he can get fantastic results, as fine and perfect as any human can do.
He can decide how high or low the action will be, according to the customer's demands, but he must put in all of the right information at the beginning of the setup and give the correct input, so the program can work properly. He must choose the proper tools and get the piece set up perfectly.
The real advantage of the machine, is that it can and does math and measuring/calculating so much faster and better than a human can do. That's under perfect conditions though.
Once that instrument leaves that shop it's still susceptible to the same environmental challenges and player's whims(string gauge, tuning, etc.), as any other instrument. If everything stays the same though, nothing more than a slight truss rod tweak should ever be required.
If you are still experimenting with strings, tunings, etc.. PLEK is a waste of money for you.
You have to be the type that knows what you want, and sticks with that.
I posted this before I read anything about the process, but I do know a bit about 3 axis(almost the most simple, there are some CNC machines that have 5 axis capabilities, more than I want to mess with, but the PLEK is only 3 axis) CNC machining. The Plek deal is even better, because it is built for a specific application. CNC mills and lathes are adaptable for a wide range of applications, so the software isn't as intuitive to such specific things.
When they first put your guitar on the PLEK machine, it has the strings on it, and is tuned the way that you like it.
It does a very detailed laser scan of the instrument under tension, then you remove the strings and it scans it again.
The software does the thousands of calculations involved for compensating the string tension and adjusts the work it will do accordingly.. The operator gets to look at all of this first and approve it, before the machine starts doing the real work.
If he spots anything in the planned work, he can make adjustments, or even scan again.
He can decide how high or low the action will be, according to the customer's demands, but he must put in all of the right information at the beginning of the setup and give the correct input, so the program can work properly. He must choose the proper tools and get the piece set up perfectly.
The real advantage of the machine, is that it can and does math and measuring/calculating so much faster and better than a human can do. That's under perfect conditions though.
Once that instrument leaves that shop it's still susceptible to the same environmental challenges and player's whims(string gauge, tuning, etc.), as any other instrument. If everything stays the same though, nothing more than a slight truss rod tweak should ever be required.
If you are still experimenting with strings, tunings, etc.. PLEK is a waste of money for you.
You have to be the type that knows what you want, and sticks with that.
I posted this before I read anything about the process, but I do know a bit about 3 axis(almost the most simple, there are some CNC machines that have 5 axis capabilities, more than I want to mess with, but the PLEK is only 3 axis) CNC machining. The Plek deal is even better, because it is built for a specific application. CNC mills and lathes are adaptable for a wide range of applications, so the software isn't as intuitive to such specific things.
When they first put your guitar on the PLEK machine, it has the strings on it, and is tuned the way that you like it.
It does a very detailed laser scan of the instrument under tension, then you remove the strings and it scans it again.
The software does the thousands of calculations involved for compensating the string tension and adjusts the work it will do accordingly.. The operator gets to look at all of this first and approve it, before the machine starts doing the real work.
If he spots anything in the planned work, he can make adjustments, or even scan again.
This post was edited on 11/8/22 at 10:38 am
Posted on 11/8/22 at 3:30 am to TheFretShack
Here is a 5 page thread about PLEK that I just finished reading on The Gear Page, since I couldn't sleep..
Seems like everyone that posted in that thread, that ever had their guitar PLEKed, swears by it.
Now I'm thinking about having it done on my Epiphone Frontier. That guitar is sounding fantastic now, but I still haven't got it playing just like I want. It's not awful, but I want it perfect and I've got to take some trips to Nashville soon anyway.
My Takamine has me spoiled, because that thing plays perfectly, I just wish it was a spruce top.
I would like to take both guitars by Glaser's shop and ask him to make the Epiphone play exactly like The Takamine. I wonder how that would go?
I've talked to Joe Glaser a bit a few years ago, and he was a straight up nice guy. He advised me against doing what I wanted done, and gave a thoughtful explanation as to why. No hint of condescension whatsoever.
quote:
LINK
Seems like everyone that posted in that thread, that ever had their guitar PLEKed, swears by it.
Now I'm thinking about having it done on my Epiphone Frontier. That guitar is sounding fantastic now, but I still haven't got it playing just like I want. It's not awful, but I want it perfect and I've got to take some trips to Nashville soon anyway.
My Takamine has me spoiled, because that thing plays perfectly, I just wish it was a spruce top.
I would like to take both guitars by Glaser's shop and ask him to make the Epiphone play exactly like The Takamine. I wonder how that would go?
I've talked to Joe Glaser a bit a few years ago, and he was a straight up nice guy. He advised me against doing what I wanted done, and gave a thoughtful explanation as to why. No hint of condescension whatsoever.
This post was edited on 11/8/22 at 5:19 pm
Posted on 11/8/22 at 2:32 pm to auggie
I had a PRS SE CU24 plekkd by sweetwater a couple of years ago. I highly recommend it. That guitar played amazing and shouldn't have sold it. I sold it to fund another purchase though. Definitely lost money on it.
Posted on 11/10/22 at 11:32 am to TheFretShack
Wicked.
I literally came to the music board (which I never really do for some reason) to talk about this new bridge I saw and am curious about as well. I think it was called evertune. I doubt I'd get ballsy enough to have someone install it on a guitar i already own but it does interest me for a future guitar with it pre-installed.
Now you're here showing me something even more persuasive!
I literally came to the music board (which I never really do for some reason) to talk about this new bridge I saw and am curious about as well. I think it was called evertune. I doubt I'd get ballsy enough to have someone install it on a guitar i already own but it does interest me for a future guitar with it pre-installed.
Now you're here showing me something even more persuasive!
Posted on 11/10/22 at 11:38 am to TheFretShack
i'll just get the fretshack to do that if need be 
Posted on 11/10/22 at 4:49 pm to TheFretShack
Not to hijack the thread, but it's related.
FretShack ... A friend let me play his guitar with vintage frets and I loved the playabilty. Incredible strung with 9's.
I've got a Squier Jazzmaster with narrow tall frets. Could the frets be reduced through leveling to more closely resemble vintage or would it be a waste? Or could the guitar be refretted with vintage at a reasonable price? (as in not half or more the price of the guitar?) Thanks.
Posted on 11/10/22 at 5:46 pm to m2pro
I literally came to the music board (which I never really do for some reason) to talk about this new bridge I saw and am curious about as well. I think it was called evertune. I doubt I'd get ballsy enough to have someone install it on a guitar i already own but it does interest me for a future guitar with it pre-installed.
Evertune bridges are really cool. Properly installed and dialed in right, and it absolutely delivers upon its promises.
But if you add up the cost of an Evertune bridge, the cost of a pro installation, and if you figure it will likely change the fundamental tone and feel of the instrument in which you install it ...
I'd personally get a used LTD guitar (ESP's more economical product line) that already has one factory installed before I invested the $$$ AND carved up an existing axe.
Evertune bridges are really cool. Properly installed and dialed in right, and it absolutely delivers upon its promises.
But if you add up the cost of an Evertune bridge, the cost of a pro installation, and if you figure it will likely change the fundamental tone and feel of the instrument in which you install it ...
I'd personally get a used LTD guitar (ESP's more economical product line) that already has one factory installed before I invested the $$$ AND carved up an existing axe.
Posted on 11/10/22 at 6:09 pm to Mizz-SEC
A friend let me play his guitar with vintage frets and I loved the playabilty. Incredible strung with 9's.
I've got a Squier Jazzmaster with narrow tall frets. Could the frets be reduced through leveling to more closely resemble vintage or would it be a waste? Or could the guitar be refretted with vintage at a reasonable price? (as in not half or more the price of the guitar?) Thanks.
Yep, a competent tech could charge you more for a refret than you paid for the entire Squier guitar. Grinding the frets down is not as intrusive and subsequently cheaper, but it still ain't cheap. Your best bet is to get the guitar set up to your liking in existing form, no mods, with the 9s you like. I'd be willing to bet it was the set-up, not the tiny vintage frets, that equally drew you in to your friend's guitar.
I've got a Squier Jazzmaster with narrow tall frets. Could the frets be reduced through leveling to more closely resemble vintage or would it be a waste? Or could the guitar be refretted with vintage at a reasonable price? (as in not half or more the price of the guitar?) Thanks.
Yep, a competent tech could charge you more for a refret than you paid for the entire Squier guitar. Grinding the frets down is not as intrusive and subsequently cheaper, but it still ain't cheap. Your best bet is to get the guitar set up to your liking in existing form, no mods, with the 9s you like. I'd be willing to bet it was the set-up, not the tiny vintage frets, that equally drew you in to your friend's guitar.
Posted on 11/14/22 at 7:31 am to TheFretShack
Appreciate the read thanks
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