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Was Tony Soprano already in Hell? (Spoilers obviously)

Posted on 12/12/22 at 12:31 pm
Posted by pevetohead
lurking behind sonic
Member since Apr 2017
2614 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 12:31 pm
TLDR: The final scene of The Sopranos is Tony witnessing his own death from hell. There is a subtle reference from 2001: A Space Odyssey that confirms that Tony is witnessing his own demise like Dr. Bowman in 2001 (and Dickie Moltisanti according to Christopher’s coma dream in Season 2)

My theory:

The Sopranos series finale “Made in America” has been discussed to death over the years. However there is an element to the final scene that goes completely unnoticed, to even the most in depth analysis of the final scene. Here is my theory:

Let’s rewind back to Season 2. Christopher has survived a near fatal gunshot wound. While recovering, he tells Tony & Paulie 2 specific things that tie directly into the final scene. The first is Christopher telling Tony & Paulie that he went to hell and had a message for the both of them : 3 o’clock.

The message has been figured out by most that 3:00 wasn’t to signify a time, but rather a direction. If the members only guy were to come out of the restroom and kill Tony, he would be at Tony’s 3:00, his blind spot.

However while the 3:00 prophecy has been figured out by most, there is a crucial detail hidden in editing in the final scene. Let’s look deeper.

Immediately following Tony’s final scene with Uncle Junior, he walks into Holsten’s and stares directly into the camera. We then cut to what we believe is Tony’s POV, a wide shot of Holsten’s. Except Tony is already seated at the table. This is a jarring and confusing editing trick. However this is not by accident. This choice of editing is a direct reference to the final scene in Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey, in which Dr. David Bowman has crossed over into another dimension and witnesses his own life rapidly progress until he dies and becomes the next stage of evolution. The final scene of 2001 has been parodied and referenced so many times in pop culture that it is hard not to see this jarring editing technique as an overt reference to 2001. But why.?

Let’s go back to Christopher’s coma again. Along with the 3 o’clock message, Christopher talks about meeting his father in hell, and how his father tells him that he re-lives the day he was killed over and over every day. So what does this mean?

I think that Tony is already dead walking into Holsten’s, and that the final scene of the show is Tony in hell, re living the night he was whacked over and over again. The fact that the scene references a scene from a movie in which a character has to watch his own death is pretty telling, but this isn’t the only Kubrick reference when Tony gets shot. In the season opener “Members Only”, right before Tony gets shot by Uncle Junior we see a movie playing on the TV - Paths of Glory, directed by Stanley Kubrick. The final season is bookended with Tony getting shot, and both times have a subtle Kubrick reference.

Anyway, $4 a pound.
Posted by VermilionTiger
Member since Dec 2012
37604 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 12:35 pm to
I’ve read enough of these theories to say this: I didn’t read a single word in your OP
Posted by pevetohead
lurking behind sonic
Member since Apr 2017
2614 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 12:37 pm to
You won’t be missed
Posted by Philzilla2k
Member since Oct 2017
11074 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 12:58 pm to
Maybe, that’s the thing about art, once it’s released to the public, individual interpretation is as valid as artistic intent, and this is certainly a well argued opinion. Next time I watch I’ll keep this theory in mind.
Posted by rebelrouser
Columbia, SC
Member since Feb 2013
10664 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 1:17 pm to
A couple of problems with your theory:
1. How is 3 o'clock the blind spot? I thought that was the 6 o'clock as in watch out bogeys on your 6 type fighter pilot jargon. Wouldn't 3 be in front of you just off to the right?
2. If this were true, david "my farts don't stink" chase would have already told us all this to show us how clever he is like he did with the final scene and phil leotardo. or maybe he is waiting around until people stop talking about him again to do another reveal.
Posted by Captain Crown
Member since Jun 2011
50879 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 1:30 pm to
His mother was a fricking demon so I could see it
Posted by OnlySopranosQuotes
Wess Carwell, Wess Carwell
Member since Sep 2021
12 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 1:54 pm to
quote:

I’ve read enough of these theories to say this: I didn’t read a single word in your OP
frickin’ queeahs!
Posted by pevetohead
lurking behind sonic
Member since Apr 2017
2614 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 2:07 pm to
quote:

How is 3 o'clock the blind spot? I thought that was the 6 o'clock as in watch


Bathroom was to his right, his 3:00. If you are focusing straight ahead, like Tony was when waiting for Meadow, then the right becomes a blind spot.

quote:

If this were true, david "my farts don't stink" chase would have already told us all this to show us how clever he is like he did with the final scene and phil leotardo. or maybe he is waiting around until people stop talking about him again to do another reveal.


“Chase has spoken about the contentious cut-to-black finale before -- which he said was inspired by the dreamlike ending of Kubrick's "2001: A Space Odyssey" -- but rarely in such vivid detail.”

LINK

This post was edited on 12/12/22 at 2:17 pm
Posted by VermilionTiger
Member since Dec 2012
37604 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 2:16 pm to
quote:

You won’t be missed


Alright

But you gotta get over it
Posted by Godfather1
What WAS St George, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
79817 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 2:19 pm to
quote:

Anyway, $4 a pound.


Best part of your post.
Posted by jchamil
Member since Nov 2009
16528 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 2:21 pm to
quote:

Bathroom was to his right, his 3:00. If you are focusing straight ahead, like Tony was when waiting for Meadow, then the right becomes a blind spot.


That seems like a huge stretch. I'm pretty sure this is the first instance I've ever heard anyone refer to 3:00 as a blind spot
Posted by Godfather1
What WAS St George, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
79817 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 2:22 pm to
quote:

maybe he is waiting around until people stop talking about him again to do another reveal.


He sure waited around until people stopped talking about him to drop a stinking turd of a movie.
Posted by Godfather1
What WAS St George, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
79817 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 2:23 pm to
quote:

I'm pretty sure this is the first instance I've ever heard anyone refer to 3:00 as a blind spot



That's because it's not a blind spot to anyone with the slightest hint of peripheral vision. It's out of the corner of your right eye.
Posted by pevetohead
lurking behind sonic
Member since Apr 2017
2614 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 2:59 pm to
Stand straight, focus straight ahead. Lift your right arm until it’s shoulder level. Do you see your hand at all?
Posted by pevetohead
lurking behind sonic
Member since Apr 2017
2614 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 3:01 pm to
Regardless of my wording of “blind spot” Tony soprano was shot at his 3:00. This is not arguable, in fact the only argument is if 3:00 is a blind spot and not if he got shot at his 3:00
Posted by L.A.
The Mojave Desert
Member since Aug 2003
61320 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 4:12 pm to
quote:

TLDR: The final scene of The Sopranos is Tony witnessing his own death from hell. There is a subtle reference from 2001: A Space Odyssey that confirms that Tony is witnessing his own demise like Dr. Bowman in 2001 (and Dickie Moltisanti according to Christopher’s coma dream in Season 2)

My theory:

The Sopranos series finale “Made in America” has been discussed to death over the years. However there is an element to the final scene that goes completely unnoticed, to even the most in depth analysis of the final scene. Here is my theory:

Let’s rewind back to Season 2. Christopher has survived a near fatal gunshot wound. While recovering, he tells Tony & Paulie 2 specific things that tie directly into the final scene. The first is Christopher telling Tony & Paulie that he went to hell and had a message for the both of them : 3 o’clock.

The message has been figured out by most that 3:00 wasn’t to signify a time, but rather a direction. If the members only guy were to come out of the restroom and kill Tony, he would be at Tony’s 3:00, his blind spot.

However while the 3:00 prophecy has been figured out by most, there is a crucial detail hidden in editing in the final scene. Let’s look deeper.

Immediately following Tony’s final scene with Uncle Junior, he walks into Holsten’s and stares directly into the camera. We then cut to what we believe is Tony’s POV, a wide shot of Holsten’s. Except Tony is already seated at the table. This is a jarring and confusing editing trick. However this is not by accident. This choice of editing is a direct reference to the final scene in Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey, in which Dr. David Bowman has crossed over into another dimension and witnesses his own life rapidly progress until he dies and becomes the next stage of evolution. The final scene of 2001 has been parodied and referenced so many times in pop culture that it is hard not to see this jarring editing technique as an overt reference to 2001. But why.?

Let’s go back to Christopher’s coma again. Along with the 3 o’clock message, Christopher talks about meeting his father in hell, and how his father tells him that he re-lives the day he was killed over and over every day. So what does this mean?

I think that Tony is already dead walking into Holsten’s, and that the final scene of the show is Tony in hell, re living the night he was whacked over and over again. The fact that the scene references a scene from a movie in which a character has to watch his own death is pretty telling, but this isn’t the only Kubrick reference when Tony gets shot. In the season opener “Members Only”, right before Tony gets shot by Uncle Junior we see a movie playing on the TV - Paths of Glory, directed by Stanley Kubrick. The final season is bookended with Tony getting shot, and both times have a subtle Kubrick reference.

Anyway, $4 a pound.

I don't know if you're right or not, but damn, well done




As for me, Paulie Walnuts already solved the mystery.
quote:

Paulie: You didn't go to hell. You went to purgatory, my friend.

Christopher: I forgot about purgatory.

Paulie: Purgatory--a little detour on the way to paradise.

Christopher: How long do you think we've got to stay there?

Paulie: That's different for everybody. You add up all your mortal sins and multiply that number by 50. Then you add up all your venial sins and multiply that by 25. You add that together and that's your sentence. I figure I'm gonna have to do 6,000 years before I get accepted into heaven and 6,000 years is nothin' in eternity terms. I can do that standing on my head. It's like a couple of days here.
Posted by frankthetank
Member since Oct 2007
2310 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 5:12 pm to
Compelling and well thought out theory. I went back and watched again and noticed what you are talking about with the scene switching from his profile looking into the diner to him sitting at the table, as though he is watching it happen. I like this idea.

But ultimately I think the director just didn't want to show Tony's death on camera; simple as that.
Posted by The Eric
Louisiana
Member since Sep 2008
21014 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 6:38 pm to
Pauline Walnuts… the scholar we need in today’s day and age.
Posted by L.A.
The Mojave Desert
Member since Aug 2003
61320 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 7:32 pm to
Posted by touchdownjeebus
Member since Sep 2010
24839 posts
Posted on 12/12/22 at 7:52 pm to
That’s an interesting perspective that I hadn’t considered. Thank you for sharing.
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