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re: The Plot Against America
Posted on 4/7/20 at 10:09 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
Posted on 4/7/20 at 10:09 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
I shouldn’t be continuing this discussion but I just wanted to point something out.
You railed about how the media in this country always discusses Nazis and World War 2 ... despite the Soviets being more detrimentally influential and having more staying power.
You realize we spent the better part of a century fighting communism right? On every fricking corner of this planet. Our entire military was - and still is - structured around P2P conflict with Russia / China. Our entire government went on a crusade against communist sympathizers multiple times.
This country still hates, and will continue to hate, both Russia and China for a long long long long fricking time. Our entire existence and self identity as a nation is framed in a us vs. the communists narrative.
People in this country already instinctively hate communists, on both the right and the left. There are plenty of self-described “liberals” who would NEVER vote for someone like Bernie Sanders because of his socialist programs.
Further, communism hasn’t seen a resurgence in the post-Sept. 11th / post-2008 financial crisis period in the same way that nativist, right wing populism has around the globe. That makes the content of this show far more relevant.
If anything is already hashed out enough to the point of oversaturation ... it’s anti-communism messaging. Communism has essentially already failed and lost. The world is becoming more open, more democratic, and more economically cooperative every single day.
If you view shows like these as an assault on your values or left wing propaganda rather than an opportunity for you to address potential flaws in your arguments or strengthen your own ideology with a more comprehensive view of the world ....
Then ... maybe ... you are just a Nazi?
A large portion of this country still blames other people for their problems rather than taking personal responsibility for their shortcomings or failures in life.
Narrow-minded people do far more to hurt the conservative cause than they do encourage more people to come to our side.
I literally voted for Trump and will do so again but I’m so fricking sick of the hysteria demonstrated by so many conservatives these days. We are literally winning. So much winning you’re getting tired of it apparently.
You railed about how the media in this country always discusses Nazis and World War 2 ... despite the Soviets being more detrimentally influential and having more staying power.
You realize we spent the better part of a century fighting communism right? On every fricking corner of this planet. Our entire military was - and still is - structured around P2P conflict with Russia / China. Our entire government went on a crusade against communist sympathizers multiple times.
This country still hates, and will continue to hate, both Russia and China for a long long long long fricking time. Our entire existence and self identity as a nation is framed in a us vs. the communists narrative.
People in this country already instinctively hate communists, on both the right and the left. There are plenty of self-described “liberals” who would NEVER vote for someone like Bernie Sanders because of his socialist programs.
Further, communism hasn’t seen a resurgence in the post-Sept. 11th / post-2008 financial crisis period in the same way that nativist, right wing populism has around the globe. That makes the content of this show far more relevant.
If anything is already hashed out enough to the point of oversaturation ... it’s anti-communism messaging. Communism has essentially already failed and lost. The world is becoming more open, more democratic, and more economically cooperative every single day.
If you view shows like these as an assault on your values or left wing propaganda rather than an opportunity for you to address potential flaws in your arguments or strengthen your own ideology with a more comprehensive view of the world ....
Then ... maybe ... you are just a Nazi?
A large portion of this country still blames other people for their problems rather than taking personal responsibility for their shortcomings or failures in life.
Narrow-minded people do far more to hurt the conservative cause than they do encourage more people to come to our side.
I literally voted for Trump and will do so again but I’m so fricking sick of the hysteria demonstrated by so many conservatives these days. We are literally winning. So much winning you’re getting tired of it apparently.
0
Posted on 4/7/20 at 10:11 am to JBeam
quote:
Along with the fact that Charles Lindbergh certainly was a Nazi sympathizer and didn't exactly do a good job of hiding it.
People need to understand something about the United States in the pre-World War II years. First and foremost, there was massive unemployment and the economy seemed to be stagnant. We were in the middle of the Great Depression and it didn't look like we were getting out of it anytime soon. Millions of Americans saw what Nazi Germany was doing with their economy and wanted the same for the United States. So yeah, a lot of Nazi sympathizers began to sprout up all over the country.
With 20/20 hindsight, it's easy to see that Hitler was a nutjob who was only reviving Germany's economy so he could plunge Europe into war. Very few saw him for who he was at the very beginning. Churchill is among that number, but few here in America thought he was anything more than a blowhard that got shite done for his people. He was Time Magazine's Person of the Year in 1938 for goodness sake.
Most Americans began to change their minds about Hitler when he started running roughshod over Europe. By the summer of 1941, you were hard pressed to find a single American with any kind of influence who was a Nazi sympathizer. War with Germany seemed imminent by that point.
Posted on 4/7/20 at 10:33 am to RollTide1987
quote:I think that's somewhat being apologetic or explaining away antisemitic feelings in the lead up to WW2. Also, Lindbergh's actions or lack thereof (Einstein/Szilard letter) speaks volumes IMHO. I still stick with my thoughts that Lindbergh was an antisemite and a believer in eugenics.
Millions of Americans saw what Nazi Germany was doing with their economy and wanted the same for the United States. So yeah, a lot of Nazi sympathizers began to sprout up all over the country.
I would love to see some regional polling information from that time period on a number of topics. I'll have to do a bit of digging. But I do remember reading a poll from 1939 that showed that the American south was one of the only regions that strongly believed in backing the British during WW2. Obviously that changed over time.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:30 pm to thadcastle
It's interesting to note that last night's episode (# 5 o f 6) is when things really start to turn away from the book (up to now, the TV adaptation has held pretty close to the what was written in the book):
1. The whole aspect of additional remuneration for the Homestead 42 families and Rabbi Bengelsdorf advocating for it was never in the book, much less the meeting with Henry Ford.
2. While Philip did go see Aunt Evelyn to get her to change her mind in the book, unwittingly condemning the Wishnows to move to Kentucky; Bess never went and saw Rabbi Bengelsdorf to get him to change his mind.
3. Similarly, Bengelsdorf's revealing to Bess that the Levin family was under scrutiny/pressure from the FBI never occurred in the book; though FBI pressure on the Levins' job situation does come later.
4. In the book, Rabbi Bengelsdorf never wrote a letter or op-ed which resulted in Winchell's firing; it was Winchell's own radio show sponsors which dropped him.
5. Herman never attended a Winchell rally in the book, much less one that devolved into mob violence.
From the looks of the previews for next week, it appears that there are more substantial changes to come from the book's plot line. I also think there will be a lot of plot omissions, as there is only a one-hour episode to cover a LOT of happenings and events.
1. The whole aspect of additional remuneration for the Homestead 42 families and Rabbi Bengelsdorf advocating for it was never in the book, much less the meeting with Henry Ford.
2. While Philip did go see Aunt Evelyn to get her to change her mind in the book, unwittingly condemning the Wishnows to move to Kentucky; Bess never went and saw Rabbi Bengelsdorf to get him to change his mind.
3. Similarly, Bengelsdorf's revealing to Bess that the Levin family was under scrutiny/pressure from the FBI never occurred in the book; though FBI pressure on the Levins' job situation does come later.
4. In the book, Rabbi Bengelsdorf never wrote a letter or op-ed which resulted in Winchell's firing; it was Winchell's own radio show sponsors which dropped him.
5. Herman never attended a Winchell rally in the book, much less one that devolved into mob violence.
From the looks of the previews for next week, it appears that there are more substantial changes to come from the book's plot line. I also think there will be a lot of plot omissions, as there is only a one-hour episode to cover a LOT of happenings and events.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:36 pm to thadcastle
The wife and I started watching it the other day. Didn't make it through the first episode. Boring as shite alternative history nonsense.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:43 pm to JBeam
quote:
I think that's somewhat being apologetic or explaining away antisemitic feelings in the lead up to WW2.
The Nazi economic miracle was about a lot more than anti-Semitism, which then, as it is today, is a bipartisan scurge.
Posted on 4/14/20 at 3:58 pm to JBeam
quote:
I think that's somewhat being apologetic or explaining away antisemitic feelings in the lead up to WW2.
You do realize that the Nazis didn't birth antisemitism don't you? They didn't invent it, nor did they have a monopoly on it. In the 1930s, you could be a fan of what the Nazis were doing overtly in Germany without being a Nazi yourself.
This post was edited on 4/14/20 at 4:00 pm
Posted on 4/20/20 at 11:57 pm to thadcastle
Great last episode except for the final 20 minutes. Brutal ending.
HBO can’t tell a good story without some political commentary. It’s the problem with most of our TV shows these days. frick.
HBO can’t tell a good story without some political commentary. It’s the problem with most of our TV shows these days. frick.
This post was edited on 4/21/20 at 1:52 am
Posted on 4/21/20 at 8:21 am to mizzoubuckeyeiowa
some of y'all get really fricking angry about TV shows.
Posted on 4/21/20 at 9:30 am to GeorgeTheGreek
It's not really HBOs fault in this situation. Simon openly said that he was going in a different direction from the book.
Posted on 4/21/20 at 11:23 am to LoneStarTiger
quote:
some of y'all get really fricking angry about TV shows.
If it just wasn't beat over my head every single day I wouldn't care if a handful of tv shows portrayed a different narrative.. But you can't turn on one late night show without somebody trashing trump on whatever it is he did or said that day.
I'm not even a very political person, but it seems like every new show out these days has some sort of underlying political agenda or axe to grind against republicans/Trump. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I'm looking too hard to find their bias, but that's just how it seems to me.
This post was edited on 4/21/20 at 11:24 am
Posted on 4/21/20 at 12:25 pm to Triple Bogey
quote:
But you can't turn on one late night show without somebody trashing trump on whatever it is he did or said that day.
that's an easy fix
Posted on 4/21/20 at 12:34 pm to JBeam
quote:
Simon openly said that he was going in a different direction from the book.
What did he do?
Posted on 4/21/20 at 1:55 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Simon openly said that he was going in a different direction from the book.
quote:
What did he do?
A lot, in addition to what I noted in an earlier post:
-- expanded roles of folks like the Rabbi, Evelyn, and especially Alvin;
-- had the Lindbergh election in 1940 'close'; in the book it was a landslide;
-- had Herman and fellow MetLife employees look into a class action lawsuit against Homestead Act 42, which wasn't in the book;
-- had Alvin participate in a proto-radar technology- associated plot (with Canada, Britain, and opposition Americans) to get Lindbergh's plane, which was apparently successful. In the book the idea of such a foreign 'Plot Against America' was described as a cockamamie theory promoted by the Republicans and not widely believed;
-- Made the Seldon rescue trip to Kentucky much more scary and melodramatic by showing Klan members openly everywhere;
-- Moved the fight between Herman and Alvin from before the Winchell assassination, the Seldon rescue and the Lindbergh disappearance to afterward, which made no sense;
-- In the book, had Roosevelt return to the Presidency easily in the 1942 special election; the TV series changed it to an unknown result and showed a lot of clear anti-Roosevelt voter fraud in Jewish neighborhoods.
I hate adaptations like this when they completely take a perfectly fine piece of fiction some author wrote over 16 years ago, and change it and turn into their viewpoint and their own political beliefs today.
Below is a link to EXACTLY what David Simon said about the show. The overt vitriol and TDS displayed by him and the interviewer is unbelievable.
They even intentionally had the final image of the radio dial announcing election results glow ORANGE...
'Plot Against America' Executive Producer David Simon on Tonight's Finale
This post was edited on 4/22/20 at 9:21 am
Posted on 4/21/20 at 3:58 pm to thadcastle
Crap like this is the real plot against America. 
Posted on 4/21/20 at 4:49 pm to Samso
quote:
Preach The WWII nazi shite is so overdone that it’s made HITLER stale and meaningless Why the frick can’t we move on?
Trump supporters getting more ridiculous by the day...
Posted on 4/21/20 at 4:53 pm to hendersonshands
quote:
Very interesting that they’ve used real people here. Wonder if the families of Lindbergh and Ford have tried to challenge any of it.
Challenge what??? Ford and Linderbegh views were known... as a matter of fact they probably known for their views more than their other accomplishments nowadays
Posted on 4/21/20 at 5:30 pm to lepdagod
Are we forgetting that Lindberg did a ton of work developing the Corsair and P-38, improving cruise performance and combat range, and flew on combat missions when he didn't have to?
Posted on 4/21/20 at 5:46 pm to FightinTigersDammit
quote:
Are we forgetting that Lindberg did a ton of work developing the Corsair and P-38, improving cruise performance and combat range, and flew on combat missions when he didn't have to?
Yes... yes we have forgot
Posted on 4/21/20 at 7:14 pm to mindbreaker
quote:
said i before and it's still true some of you are absolutely ate up with the politics.
Compared to the guy who made the show?
From the horse’s mouth:
LINK
quote:
you know, we would not have been doing this miniseries had Hilary Clinton won.
It’s not about being “ate up with politics”. It’s being fed up with this biased fallacy that the president is the second coming of Hitler and that everything would be rainbows and unicorns if leftists were elected. It’s especially egregious when it’s ridiculous metaphors like this show.
No minorities have been adversely effected since Trump has been president, contrary to what these people try to hammer in our heads every day.
And I love alternate history so I have this show a chance knowing full well what the agenda was. I quit after the third episode because it’s so ham fisted and ridiculous.
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