re: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power S1, Episode 4 Thread | Amazon | Available Now

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These were not Edain, they have been directly stated to have been the descendants of Men who fought on Morgoth's side. So that's why they didn't get to go to Numenor.

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Yeah but from the clip I saw where they called Don Lemon “sword ears” he’s got a point where he’s asking when are they going to allow them to live on their own again. Morgoth was defeated 1,500 years before the series started, so it’d be like holding me accountable for things my Roman ancestors did. Like… no, I don’t even know who they are. Why the frick should I be paying for this shite 78 generations down the line? Enough is enough. If they do turn to Sauron, then makes logical sense at this point just to kill off their Elven captors. The Elves made these men evil. You could get them out of that mindset within two generations tops, because if you didn’t wouldn’t every single German you meet still be saluting Hitler? It’s ridiculous.

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They weren't eradicated, that's not the way of the forces of good in Tolkien's work. But it would make practical sense that there would be some form of oversight, an occupation, to ensure these Morgoth-followers behave themselves. Initial episode storylines state it as thus. And the Elves, well, they are the guys who fought, they remember why they're there. Because they don't grow old and die.

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1,500 years though? The Easterlings didn’t get involved with the quarrels of the elves. From memory, I think they only got involved when the Numenorians and their descendants got involved and started taking their lands. It didn’t have much with them being loyal to Sauron, just the principle “My Enemy’s Enemy is my Friend.”

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But the Men, we're talking many generations who have come and gone, and the current folks just see the Elves as overlords, even if benign. Little mingling.

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Yeah, and the Elves are idiots for this. Just roughly taking into account that Men only arrived at the start of the First Age and the First Age lasts only a little over 500 years, these elves have roughly been keeping them in a prison camp for 3/4rds of their species existence. “Oh I wonder why they joined up with Sauron?!” Yeah, it’s pretty easy to imagine if this is what the elves were doing to them.

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No... Gandalf himself calls Sauron very wise. It's while they are in discussion of what to do with the Ring, later in the story, I believe after Aragorn has shown himself in the Palantir.

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Maybe I’m misremembering it, but don’t remember it. Honestly, I don’t think Sauron or Morgoth or any of their creations were wise. Like for instance if you’ve watched Game of Thrones or read A Song of Ice and Fire, I think Littlefinger is the least wise character in the story. Now, he’s certainly a Top 10 in the most intelligent, but Littlefinger lacks all wisdom, boasts about everything, is cocky, and likes carrying trophies around on his past misdeeds.

It’s like saying someone is brave when they’re actually fearless. Someone truly fearless I don’t think knows courage. He just has nothing left to lose. It’s why Sam and Eowyn (as well as the Hobbits at large) are seen as the bravest in Lord of the Rings and not say Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli. Those three are fearless, but the Hobbits are brave.

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And Gil Galad has called an end to this, in the first episode. The Elves are leaving, they are finally satisfied that the Men present no danger to them.

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Well that’s just total bullshite made up by the show. Men weren’t even awakened when the Noldor were exiled from Valinor and they weren’t all that much of a major factor in the War of Wrath at large. Individuals were, but not Men as a whole.

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Wasn't more than a few Elves taken prisoner by the Orcs, might be awhile before the leadership notices not everyone from one outpost hasn't arrived back yet. If they even check in, who knows, maybe they just come back to 'civilian life'? But the fact is, they were leaving just as the Orcs began moving. And the Orcs were following their withdrawal.

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Again haven’t seen the show, but if you’re implying they could have been turned into Orcs, I doubt it. Again, I think Morgoth took some of the very earliest Elves and mutilated them with his superior powers well before the destruction of the Two Trees. I don’t think Sauron ever corrupted an elf into his service.

I think this is really good. But I’m not some huge Tolkien nerd.

Obviously I recognize some of the names and of course knew what the dwarves found. And for me has been good enough to show a period in time pre hobbit.

A few things that did stick out to me in the episode.

1) Halbrand while speaking with Galadriel in the cell said

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'give them a means of mastering it. So that you can master them

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Almost like Sauron teaching the Elves how to make the rings but binds his power to them to control those who wear the rings. Just a thought to ponder.

2) When the old guy came to the boy in the tower regarding the hilt. He told him that Sauron was back and that the comet/star falling was the sign. If the stranger is a Istari(wizard) they were sent to Middle Earth to fight against Sauron and evil. I doubt the Istari was a positive sign for the return of Sauron unless he is meaning the sign was Sauron himself.

3) And I still feel the introduction to Adar in the cave felt like the scene when we first meet Col. Kurtz in the cave in Apocalypse Now. His backstory I am very interested in.

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See this part I always struggle to understand with the way Tolkien measures time in the his stories.

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The only stories were Hobbit and LOTR. The rest was just background info to support the lore. JRR Tolkien didnt even release them, it was just his notes. They are only entertaining because he was just that brilliant.

How could one calculate years when there is no sun and moon?

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How could one calculate years when there is no sun and moon?

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The First Day started with the Two Trees, and each day was 12 hours long.

But before that there was a long time period, perhaps as much as 35,000 years, before the two trees. Then another long period, maybe 1,500 years, before the sun and moon. Then another 5-600 years before the end of the first age.

With meteor man looking for a constellation, how does he travel to find a different one? The world is still flat in the second age, so going south or north shouldn’t show different constellations.

I missed it in the first episode, where did the kid find the broken park of Sauron’s staff?

Watched last night. This one was a little better. Dwarves continue to be best aspect of the show. Durin is the best character by far. Elrond is overall likable.

Some things continue to not make sense from a 1 billion (!) dollar show. Galadriel continues to suck, scene throwing 4 guards in a cell with stern looks and shoving was so comically bad. “The erlves toor ar jerbs!”, lmao really? Orcs are clowns, and the aesthetics/movement of the archery fight between them and Arondir while escaping from the woods looked like trash.

Some shills will downvote this post, but getting over yourself and what “side” of this show you’re on, it just doesn’t feel like a production for the most expensive show ever. It’s ok and watchable, but why are there so many flat out bad moments week to week that are so easily fixed with decent writing? GoT did not have these same types of shitty scenes.

I forgot the mention shoving the guards in the cell. I mean seriously who wrote this crap? A 5th grader? Little things like that make me believe they don’t take this show seriously and is most likely going to force me to give up on it

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Yeah but from the clip I saw where they called Don Lemon “sword ears” he’s got a point where he’s asking when are they going to allow them to live on their own again. Morgoth was defeated 1,500 years before the series started, so it’d be like holding me accountable for things my Roman ancestors did. Like… no, I don’t even know who they are. Why the frick should I be paying for this shite 78 generations down the line? Enough is enough. If they do turn to Sauron, then makes logical sense at this point just to kill off their Elven captors. The Elves made these men evil. You could get them out of that mindset within two generations tops, because if you didn’t wouldn’t every single German you meet still be saluting Hitler? It’s ridiculous.

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That's a good point, and I wonder if the show is addressing that somewhat.

There's a scene with Elrond and Durin, where Elrond truly has no idea how he's wronged his friend. Durin says he hasn't seen him since before he got married and had his 2 children. Elrond is still blankfaced, confused, and says something like "oh", and then starts reconciling.

Different species, but same issue- "time" isn't relevant to Elves. They don't age, so it's nothing. Elrond could go to visit an Elf, stop and gaze in wonder at a waterfall for, say, a century, and then show up and they'd be happy to see each other. Would talk about the beautiful waterfall, and maybe how it's cut through the stone that was once there...
Do that with a Man, and he's dead and buried before Elrond gets there.
And that's Elrond, who had a brother become a Man, and now Numenor has had a couple dozen kings since he passed. Of all Elves, he should have the most awareness of time.

These Elves from Beleriand, they came and set up camp, and watched awhile (awhile to them). Maybe it was the Men of Bor, or Ulfang, or a different tribe that came over the Blue Mountains. Regardless, it was acknowledged they were involved in the wars of the First Age.

The Silvan Elves and Dwarves carried their grudge all the way from Doriath in the First Age, to still deeply mistrustful and antagonistic in the Third; even after the events of The Hobbit, Gimli's generation says "never trust an Elf". As bad as things were (the killing of Thingol etc), there was never a transgression as bad, as serving Morgoth; they were loose allies in the First Age at times, and recently in the Third.

The Men never did anything, good or bad, after the First Age. Eventually the Noldor relented.

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Wasn't more than a few Elves taken prisoner by the Orcs, might be awhile before the leadership notices not everyone from one outpost hasn't arrived back yet. If they even check in, who knows, maybe they just come back to 'civilian life'? But the fact is, they were leaving just as the Orcs began moving. And the Orcs were following their withdrawal.

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Again haven’t seen the show, but if you’re implying they could have been turned into Orcs, I doubt it. Again, I think Morgoth took some of the very earliest Elves and mutilated them with his superior powers well before the destruction of the Two Trees. I don’t think Sauron ever corrupted an elf into his service.

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No- you're correct with this.

There is an Elf leading the Orcs, but they call him Adar (father). He talks to Arondir, asks where he was born- (Beleriand). He says, "By the mouths of the river? I walked those lands long ago."
And then proceeds to tell Arondir that much of what he's been told, is lies. Lies so old, even the stones are beginning to believe them.

That, to me, sounds like Adar is one of the Elves that Morgoth got to, before Orome first found them. Which, when you think about it, could fit nicely... he'd need to survive the fall of Utumno, and then Angband, but a few things clearly did. Morgoth probably wouldn't use his immortal breeding stock as cannon fodder, and Elves don't die of old age. He might well be the last one left, or there may be several still around... and they'd be far more valuable to Sauron as his court and cabinet, instead of leading troops in the field. Makes sense we wouldn't see them much.

Adar makes the comment- "I'm not a god... yet". Some people take that as meaning he's Sauron, but consider this.
An Elf with one of the Rings (such as Galadriel), is far more powerful than one of the Nazgul (Men). It's not JUST the Ring that made the difference, it was also the race. Adar, even with one of the Nine, would be a fricking beast to deal with.
So, it's clear he has to die. Maybe in the battles ahead, or maybe even by Sauron's own hand; Sauron might not want to give that much power to an Elf.