re: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power S1, Episode 4 Thread | Amazon | Available Now

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I like the show but there’s no need to defend it so hard.

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What are you talking about? I said the King believes he is out there but not concerned because he said he was all but a memory as no one could find him.

I am not defending anything just making a point with an actual fact from the show.

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Sure, but they definitely built him up too much. He’s portrayed in the show comparable to Morgoth

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The only one that has built him up is Galadriel who so far has only convinced one person to listen to her. But I have not seen the show compare him to Morgoth.

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The show is great

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This is one of the most poorly written shows ive seen in quite a while. I suppose you have low expectations.

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Sure, but they definitely built him up too much. He’s portrayed in the show comparable to Morgoth, when literally nobody thought that at the time.

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It’s debatable that Sauron became more powerful than his master after he forged the One Ring. Not at the height of Morgoth’s power since he could level mountains singlehandedly during the Years of the Lamps, but during the First Age. Morgoth of old would have been able to destroy Ungoliant pretty easily, but he needed help from his Balrogs to deal with her at the Dawn of the First Age.

Morgoth had binded much of the power of Arda to himself early on, but while this increased his influence on the course of the world, it actually made himself weaker where he was a hollow shell of himself by the First Age. It was enough where the mightiest of the Elves somewhat stood a chance against him, and that would have never happened before he was imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos.

Theo is definitely going to become a Ringwraith.

Very very slow story building. They are banking on the audience committing to this big time.

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If you dig into the agreements with the Estate, this show can not break lore established directly within LOTR (not just the films, the books).

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Galadriel never went to Numenor and Gil-Galad did not have the authority to end Galadriel’s (nor even his own) exile from Valinor. So lore broken first episode of the series.

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Been awhile since I looked at the Appendixes in ROTK, but I don't know if there's anything that PREVENTS Sauron from having a test-run of corrupting a kingdom (of Men), prior to coming to Celebrimbor. He's pretty much incognito from the end of the First Age, to when he shows up as Annatar.

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Save for finding Mordor, we don’t know much of what Sauron was up to at this time. Unlike Galadriel, it’s possible Sauron may have smuggled his way to Numenor or doing whatever the hell else he’s doing right now. He sure as shite didn’t meet the “Harfoots” though because Sauron was not aware of Hobbits’ existence until he captured Gollum.

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The knowledge of LOTR (including the Appendixes) is simply an in-world account of what Bilbo learned, from his time in Rivendell, and later put in the Red Book. Right?

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As well as what Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and their descendants wrote in it, yes.

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So that knowledge would be more in-depth on Elves (since they were one source), with a smattering on Hobbits, since Bilbo knew of his own people (and Elrond/the Rangers had knowledge of the Shire).

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Haven’t thought about this, but within the context in which the Red Book of the Westmarch was written, this is indeed true.

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An account of a fallen kingdom of 'lesser Men', in what would become Mordor, that did not have connection to Numenor... little detail would come to the Elves, and thus to the Red Book. It is simply known that Sauron would form his realm there, and that south of the Sea of Nurn, there were still fertile fields tended by slave labor to feed his forces. How he acquired that territory is not discussed.

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While I’m not watching it, aren’t the elves already there? If this is the case, they’d probably have a bit more in Elvish history than Sauron simply stumbling upon Mordor, which is implicit in the books.

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Seems like someone as wise and calculating as Sauron (and he is described as such)

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Sauron may have once been wise, but he wasn’t any longer. He was known as the Terrible, Cruel, Faithless, and Accursed. He may have been intelligent and manipulative, but one of the smarter people I personally know is the least wise person I’ve ever met. I think you may be mixing that title up with Saruman’s who was called Saruman the Wise.

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would not go after a Noldor kingdom lightly, and without much preparation. That's a big move. Hitler prior to WW2, made multiple smaller invasions and takeovers, of weaker nations, perfecting the blitzkrieg, before directly challenging the established powers. Sauron could have done similar, first taking over a (weak and isolated) community of Men, before hitting Celebrimbor.

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Again, it’s possible Sauron went to Numenor, but I don’t think it likely. I don’t think Sauron would demean his form to that of a man willingly. He held them extremely lowly.

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Galadriel identifying herself as a Noldor from the House of Finarfin... I don't know that PJ's movies ever addressed even the difference between Noldor and Sindar, much less the in-house distinction between Feanor and his siblings. It's essential if you read up on the histories etc, but not for LOTR or The Hobbit... those just give us "High Elves" and "Silvan Elves", and you wouldn't know how great the divide was.

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The thing is it’s not all that relevant to Jackson’s trilogy even if it is important to the overall mythos. Not really worth bringing up that Legolas is relatively speaking seen as a trash elf compared to Galadriel’s line. He communicates that simply through the visuals and aesthetics.

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An account of a fallen kingdom of 'lesser Men', in what would become Mordor, that did not have connection to Numenor... little detail would come to the Elves, and thus to the Red Book. It is simply known that Sauron would form his realm there, and that south of the Sea of Nurn, there were still fertile fields tended by slave labor to feed his forces. How he acquired that territory is not discussed.

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While I’m not watching it, aren’t the elves already there? If this is the case, they’d probably have a bit more in Elvish history than Sauron simply stumbling upon Mordor, which is implicit in the books.

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The context of the Elves being "there"...

These were not Edain, they have been directly stated to have been the descendants of Men who fought on Morgoth's side. So that's why they didn't get to go to Numenor.

They weren't eradicated, that's not the way of the forces of good in Tolkien's work. But it would make practical sense that there would be some form of oversight, an occupation, to ensure these Morgoth-followers behave themselves. Initial episode storylines state it as thus. And the Elves, well, they are the guys who fought, they remember why they're there. Because they don't grow old and die.
But the Men, we're talking many generations who have come and gone, and the current folks just see the Elves as overlords, even if benign. Little mingling.

And Gil Galad has called an end to this, in the first episode. The Elves are leaving, they are finally satisfied that the Men present no danger to them.

Wasn't more than a few Elves taken prisoner by the Orcs, might be awhile before the leadership notices not everyone from one outpost hasn't arrived back yet. If they even check in, who knows, maybe they just come back to 'civilian life'? But the fact is, they were leaving just as the Orcs began moving. And the Orcs were following their withdrawal.
His commander and fellow prisoner stated, if any could get away and back to the other Elves, they could come in force and stamp this out. So even as a captive, he didn't think the Orcs to be such a threat, that a group of Elves couldn't handle it.

I think calling Halbrand a "king" is Galadriel being a bit generous. He was probably chieftain of a village, or maybe a couple, off to the East. There really doesn't seem to be any governing bodies involved.

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Seems like someone as wise and calculating as Sauron (and he is described as such)


Sauron may have once been wise, but he wasn’t any longer. He was known as the Terrible, Cruel, Faithless, and Accursed. He may have been intelligent and manipulative, but one of the smarter people I personally know is the least wise person I’ve ever met. I think you may be mixing that title up with Saruman’s who was called Saruman the Wise.

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No... Gandalf himself calls Sauron very wise. It's while they are in discussion of what to do with the Ring, later in the story, I believe after Aragorn has shown himself in the Palantir.

He does state Sauron has blind spots, due to his own nature (the very idea of destroying the Ring would never enter his wildest dreams); but that Sauron was watching how things were playing out, deducing the reasons behind it, and taking steps to address it.

Sauron would see the loss at Minas Tirith and the appearance of Aragorn as- Aragorn has the Ring, and is moving to consolidate power. And that he'd have to hit Aragorn quickly, before Aragorn became adept at what he could do with the Ring. The arrogant march on the Gates of Mordor were meant to play into that, that Sauron would see that Aragorn overestimated his current position.

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I’m enjoying the Elrong/Durin subplot. I’m in joying the Arondir subplot and Adar is very interesting.

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I still say my feelings on this show are mixed but it is growing on me. Not everyone or everything (Galadriel, hobbits), but enough to make me want more.

I did not care for the look of Elrond at first. But he is one of the more competent and wise characters, which of course he should be.

Adar is by far the best part of the show in his limited time. A very intriguing character.

The look of Numenor is fantastic. This is the main reason I wanted to see this show, and even the though the plot in Numenor isn’t compelling, and the compressed timeline does it no favors, it is a breathtaking place to see.

As for Galadriel, I don’t mind that she is impulsive, or that she is proud, or even really that she fights. I do think they have her motivation wrong. As far as I am aware, her main motivation was ambition and power. She left for middle earth because she wanted a land to rule, not because she wanted revenge or to defeat evil, from what I remember. That is what makes her choices in LOTR such incredible character development for her. After many thousands of years of seeking power, she has the chance to have it all, but she refuses the ring, passes the test, diminishes and passes into the West.