re: OFFICIAL - The Dark Knight Rises Discussion Thread - *SPOILERS*

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For those talking about the 8 year gap, I think it helped show how Batman taking the fall for Dent helped clean up the streets.

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My question is if Bruce accomplished his goal of cleaning up Gotham, then why was he totally depressed at the start of TDKR? Because it was ll built on a lie? Because he had nothing really to live for?

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Point to where in the movie an event occurred where we see and understand Bruce growing in trust with Miranda.

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I did, but as I said, you choose to ignore them. I don't need a flashback to when Miranda decides to fund the project, or a flashback to all the things that mad Fox trust her. I can use my brain to take know that these things obviously happened, and don't need wasted screen time with them.

You do, because you're trying your best to nitpick this film apart.

Who besides you gives a shite why Fox trusts her? Use your imagination and make up any reason you like. It's shown that he does, and that's all that's needed for most people to realize that events have probably happened during the 8 year window that led him to trusting her, except for a pain in the arse such as yourself trying to nitpick this movie apart.

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Who besides you gives a shite why Fox trusts her?

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the fricking AUDIENCE. Have you not seen Inception, Nolan is basically lecturing other writers about this very concept. Keep the dream (movie) viable, don't just overload them with information or they'll snap out of the dream (movie)

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Use your imagination and make up any reason you like.

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That's not the audiences job, especially on a point the entire plot hinges upon. That's the job of the writer. If I have to make up reasons for the plot to be viable, I'm no longer captured by the story, I'm above it.

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It's shown that he does

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You're wrong, we're TOLD he does in exposition and dialog. We are SHOWN he doesn't just prior to this by virtue of hiding everything from her. It doesn't add up.

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and that's all that's needed for most people to realize that events have probably happened during the 8 year window that led him to trusting her

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Sure if you want a dry story which leaves you feeling like something doesn't jive about the movie.

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except for a pain in the arse such as yourself trying to nitpick this movie apart

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This is the most revealing part of your post. Why feel the need to name call when someone brings up a thoughtful review to the movie? When a plot fails at its core, that's not nitpicking. If you can't stomach someone simply stating this movie isn't as good as BB and TDKR without getting pissy perhaps you need counseling or something.

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No wonder the movie industry sucks so much these days.

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I'll anxiously await a screen play by you. Should be pretty easy for you.

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You're wrong, we're TOLD he does in exposition and dialog. We are SHOWN he doesn't just prior to this by virtue of hiding everything from her. It doesn't add up.

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I just don't get this critique. So what if we aren't shown explicitly why Fox trusts her. He does and his reasons are spelled out multiple times. The audience doesn't need a scene to show Tate gaining his trust. The charity ball scene does a good job of showing Tate gaining Wayne's trust. Following dialog is a good way to understand why Fox and in turn Wayne puts their trust in Tate.

And Tate also spent 5 months after Gotham was taken over by Bane, building the trust of Fox, Gordon, and Blake.

It's just a silly critique. Did we need to see a scene with Lando Calrissian gaining Han Solo trust? The audience is adept enough to understand what was going on and why with it being spelled out for them.

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Trust would have to exist in the first place for this to happen.

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They explained that trust was there, even if it was only told as you continue to repeat. But you ignore it, so it didn't happen

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Can we move on to something else?

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Hopefully.

This is a rebuttal to Slashfilm's article, “15 Things That Bothered Us About 'The Dark Knight Rises'”. I read through their article twice, absorbing everything they had to say. And while Slashfilm does bring up some legitimate points, I find that most of what they found wrong with “The Dark Knight Rises” is nothing but nitpicking and a failure to suspend disbelief.

So, in the words of the Joker, here we go.

When and how did Bane find out about Batman’s identity and Applied Sciences?

Talia al Ghul and Bane were both trained by Talia's father within the confines of the organization known as the League of Shadows. The LOS featured prominently in “Batman Begins” as they trained Bruce Wayne and gave him the tools and know-how that would aid him on his journey to becoming Batman. It was no secret to Liam Neeson's Ra's al Ghul that Bruce Wayne was Batman. Why else show up at Wayne Manor at the beginning of the third act of the movie? And when Batman defeats Ra's al Ghul, there were numerous LOS henchmen that were not accounted for at the end of the movie. Surely one of these LOS soldiers could have returned to Tibet to tell the remaining members of the League what happened. Christopher Nolan requires audiences to use their imaginations and intelligence as he doesn't believe everything needs to be spelled out to them. The League of Shadows trained Bruce Wayne, so I don't think it was a secret to them who Batman really was.

And how did Bane know about Applied Sciences? This all goes back to him knowing that Bruce Wayne was Batman. Surely Bruce Wayne doesn't build all of those gadgets and vehicles of his from scratch. And considering that it was revealed in Batman Begins that Wayne Enterprises was heavily involved in building things for the military, I don't think it took Bane that much time and thought into figuring out where Bruce Wayne got all of his toys. The key was to finding out where Applied Sciences was located and this wasn't exactly a well-kept secret. Mr. Earle visited Fox in Applied Sciences toward the end of the second act of Batman Begins. Coleman Reese, the attorney from a consultant firm that figures out Batman's secret identity in The Dark Knight, also finds Applied Sciences. And let's harken back to Batman Begins when Ra's al Ghul tells Bruce Wayne inside Wayne Manor, “You are defending a city so corrupt we have infiltrated every level of its infrastructure.” If they are such good infiltrators as Ra's al Ghul says in Batman Begins, I'm pretty sure they still are good at what they do eight years later. Talia al Ghul proves this by getting herself on the board of Wayne Enterprises, using the alias of Miranda Tate. With all that said, it's not a huge leap in logic that Bane can successfully find and steal from Applied Sciences.


Blake Intuits That Bruce Wayne is Batman

This is, at least in my opinion, a valid criticism. I can understand why people had such a problem with Blake working out who Batman's secret identity is but I'm going to explain to you all why I ended up giving Nolan a pass on this one. Bruce Wayne and John Blake are essentially the same person, minus the wealth and privilege that Blake did not have but that Wayne did. The movie goes to great lengths to tell us that John Blake is an intuitive detective. He's able to work out that Bane is lacing explosives into concrete all over the city, and that Bane's mercenaries are coming to kill Gordon at the hospital, along with numerous other things. Bottom line, the dude is pretty smart.

In his little monologue to Bruce at Wayne Manor, Blake explains how, when he was still a kid, Bruce Wayne came to visit the orphanage where Blake lived. The kids were obviously in awe of this orphaned billionaire with the cocky swagger and the eye-candy on his arm. He insinuated that the kids used to make up pretend stories that this orphan, this Bruce Wayne was actually Batman. While Blake never actually comes out and says the stories they made up concerned him being Batman, it's pretty obvious that's what he is talking about. He calls the stories “legends” and goes on to say that while the other boys just regarded the stories as just being stories, Blake put two and two together when he saw him for the time. Blake and Wayne share a similar tragedy: they both lost parents in violent incidents. They both buried their grief with anger, and they both learned to hide that anger behind a “mask,” as Blake puts it. Because they share that similar connection, Blake is able to see right through the cocky exterior of Bruce Wayne, and is able to see himself. All of a sudden those stories, those legends that the boys came up with about Bruce Wayne, became very real to John Blake.


Bruce Wayne Is Down, Then Back Up, Then Down, Then Back Up…

This is where I feel Slashfilm missed the entire point of the film. They claim in this little section that Bruce starts out low, rises when he becomes Batman, falls once again when he is defeated by Bane, and then rises once again after recuperating and climbing out of the pit. While it might appear like that on the surface all you have to do is listen to the dialogue to find out that this is not the case. It's what Alfred said just before Bruce donned the cape and cowl for the first time in the film, putting the batsuit on and going out to fight crime doesn't automatically make you Batman again. He lacked the true motivation and true reason for becoming Batman. He lacked belief, which is something that Bane had plenty of. When Bane and Batman square off in the sewer, the Batman we see there isn't really Batman. All Bruce Wayne was doing was trying to prove to himself and to Alfred that he still “had it.” And so Bruce Wayne is thrown down into the pit, broken and defeated. This is where he truly learns what it means to be Batman again. The pit is a symbol of pain, cleansing, and resurrection. When he successfully makes the climb it is the first time in the film that he is actually Batman. He not only has the right skillset, but he is now back in the right frame of mind. That is why the final climb is probably the second most important scene in the movie. It says what the movie is all about without spelling it out for us: The Dark Knight Rises.


Alfred Says Goodbye to Bruce

I'm not going to argue with this, I'll just say agree to disagree. I found the scene to be effective and emotional. Just my opinion.


Why Wouldn’t the SEC Just Overturn Bane’s Fraudulent Trades?

Now these kinds of nitpicks just make me roll my eyes. It's very obvious that such a scam could not be achieved in the real world. But come on, man, this is a movie not real life. If you're going to nitpick something like that you might as well nitpick the trilogy's other fantastical elements such as the microwave emitter in Batman Begins as well as everything the Joker does in The Dark Knight. Plus Bane's attack on the stock exchange would have thrown everything out of wack. They shot up computers, trade desks, causing a lot of damage in the process. Everyone would have lost money and such an attack would take months for the SEC to sort out due to all the claims that would have been pouring across their desks. Plus, Lucius Fox tells Bruce Wayne that they would be able to prove fraud long term but for the present, Wayne was completely broke.