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re: My 9 y/o daughter's conclusion after seeing the climax in League of Their Own
Posted on 2/9/12 at 1:43 pm to LSU Fan 90812
Posted on 2/9/12 at 1:43 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:yep
the change is dottie's relinquishing her life of competitiveness and sibling rivalry. Of listening to her sister's needs and finally acquiescing. of already knowing she was the best player in the league, and letting that knowledge be enough.
quote:exactly, she's hoping that her oldest grandson learns what she learned at an earlier age
This is the story and why the movie ends and begins with the sisters being sisters. With old dottie telling her oldest grandson to take it easy on the youngest grandson.
0
Posted on 2/9/12 at 1:44 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:
karmapol1ce
I forgot what movie or show it was we came to a fairly serious argument on, but I am right there with you here.
Nice way of explaining the idea of the hero and sacrifice.
quote:
anybody who thinks she didn't drop the ball on purpose is thinking from a sports perspective instead of a MOVIE perspective. this is a movie. those saying it ruins the movie are missing the point entirely.
This. Good point. But this is exactly why I think it's ok to think she didn't drop it, that's just their perspective. I don't agree, mostly because I am looking the narrative itself, which you elaborate on better than I.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 1:48 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:
there's a moment when kit is sobbing in the dugout and dottie is looking at her and she makes her decision.
It was eating at Dottie to see her sister fail yet again. However, I don't think that Dottie finally gave into her feelings until Kit rounded 3rd base.
quote:
jimmy looks at dottie and understands what he's done. and it's part of his character's arc that he respects her enough to let it be what it is.
Bingo
quote:
This is the story and why the movie ends and begins with the sisters being sisters. With old dottie telling her oldest grandson to take it easy on the youngest grandson.
Never thought about that point. BING-FREAKING-O!!!
Posted on 2/9/12 at 1:53 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:
I'm sorry.
This movie is about Dottie's relationship with her sister and nothing else. Everything about this movie is about the build where Dottie decides to move on with her life, let her sister step her out of shadow.
there's a moment when kit is sobbing in the dugout and dottie is looking at her and she makes her decision.
jimmy looks at dottie and understands what he's done. and it's part of his character's arc that he respects her enough to let it be what it is.
the movie's arc is incomplete if dottie doesn't do this on purpose. every protagonist has to have growth and change or else there is no movie. the change is dottie's relinquishing her life of competitiveness and sibling rivalry. Of listening to her sister's needs and finally acquiescing. of already knowing she was the best player in the league, and letting that knowledge be enough. There are countless movies where the main character and protagonist sacrifices for another character. this is one of them.
Kit and Dottie to exchange.
"I got you into this league goddammit. I didn't even want to be in this stupid league."
"then WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE?"
Dottie is a prideful, hard character from jump street. She's an inhuman machine on the ball field. This is her change. She becomes human. She becomes a sister. if kit just beats her, then dottie's character arc is incomplete. she's still the competitive cutthroat ball player she always was. she was just beaten. but if she drops it, then she LEARNS something. that's what movies and character development are all about. Penny Marshall is also a woman. This is the story and why the movie ends and begins with the sisters being sisters. With old dottie telling her oldest grandson to take it easy on the youngest grandson.
anybody who thinks she didn't drop the ball on purpose is thinking from a sports perspective instead of a MOVIE perspective. this is a movie. those saying it ruins the movie are missing the point entirely.
coke's gonna say i'm being elitist again, but everything from a movie/storytelling standpoint says it's entirely incomprehensible that she didn't drop it on purpose.
Killed it. Nice of you to come in on page 9 to stop the back patting of the victors.
inb4alajones; There is absolutely nothing in the movie that supports the conclusion that Dottie dropped it on purpose.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 2:09 pm to Freauxzen
I agree with this post...
If you watch the climactic scenes; after Dottie tells the pitcher how to beat her sister, she stares at Kit a long time and notices just how much this means to the sister and how hard she is trying, then Dottie seems to feel uncomfortable when kit looks at her after strike 2 , like she knows Dottie was pitching her that way deliberately...I think this the spot where Dottie realizes it is more important to Kit than her...
One more big reason for why she dropped it on purpose...her hand that held the ball OPENED...the ball didn't slip out of a closed hand...her hand opened to let the ball go...
If you watch the climactic scenes; after Dottie tells the pitcher how to beat her sister, she stares at Kit a long time and notices just how much this means to the sister and how hard she is trying, then Dottie seems to feel uncomfortable when kit looks at her after strike 2 , like she knows Dottie was pitching her that way deliberately...I think this the spot where Dottie realizes it is more important to Kit than her...
One more big reason for why she dropped it on purpose...her hand that held the ball OPENED...the ball didn't slip out of a closed hand...her hand opened to let the ball go...
Posted on 2/9/12 at 2:17 pm to Archie Bengal Bunker
quote:Which is why you all want to believe this.
the movie's arc is incomplete if dottie doesn't do this on purpose. every protagonist has to have growth and change or else there is no movie. the change is dottie's relinquishing her life of competitiveness and sibling rivalry. Of listening to her sister's needs and finally acquiescing. of already knowing she was the best player in the league, and letting that knowledge be enough. There are countless movies where the main character and protagonist sacrifices for another character. this is one of them.
I get why you want to think this way. But you are IGNORING events of the movie leading up to it.
Crap, I don't expect everyone to agree with me but you all are pulling all this crap out of your 12th grade English textbooks that does not repudiate any of the facts I laid out.
At least admit it is your own speculation and not related to anything that ACTUALLY HAPPENED in the movie.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 2:25 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:You are being so disrespectful to Kit with this attitude.
This movie is about Dottie's relationship with her sister and nothing else. Everything about this movie is about the build where Dottie decides to move on with her life, let her sister step her out of shadow.
quote:So why did she tell the pitcher she can't hit the high ones?
there's a moment when kit is sobbing in the dugout and dottie is looking at her and she makes her decision.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 2:25 pm to alajones
quote:
Which is why you all want to believe this.
We all want to believe it because we look to the narrative, to the story and it's constructs for answers?
quote:
But you are IGNORING events of the movie leading up to it.
Ignoring the way you THINK we should read it, maybe. Just like those who think Dottie didn't drop it are ignoring the story of Dottie.
quote:
you all are pulling all this crap out of your 12th grade English textbooks
You mean pulling things out of the way the narrative is constructed and narratives have and always will be constructed.
quote:
At least admit it is your own speculation and not related to anything that ACTUALLY HAPPENED in the movie.
Did you read karma's post?
Posted on 2/9/12 at 2:28 pm to alajones
quote:
You are being so disrespectful to Kit with this attitude.
Man I respect your opinion, but Kit doesn't matter in the movie essentially. She is a mere foil for Dottie, and part of Dottie's catalyst for change. Kitt doesn't change in the end, therefore the movie isn't about her.
The movie is about Dottie.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 2:49 pm to alajones
quote:
You are being so disrespectful to Kit with this attitude.
No it's not. It's not disrespectful to Kit at all. Kit hit the high one. She put the ball in play. She did something she always wanted to do. At the end of the movie, Kit looks at Dottie and there is understanding between them. Kit wants to be her own person. To have independence. To be free of the dairy farms.
"It's like if you're there. I'm not there."
"this is my daughter Dottie. This is my other daughter, Dottie's sister"
It's not about Dottie being vanquished.
Kit might very well know that Dottie gave her the victory. And you presuppose that she would be bitter about it. But it's just as supported that Dottie letting her be her own woman is what Kit wanted the whole time.
Also. Not everything in this life is earned. Sometimes ground is given. Kit isn't the protagonist. Dottie is.
This movie is about Dottie's trumph over her own pride.
Not Kit.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 2:54 pm
Posted on 2/9/12 at 2:51 pm to LSU Fan 90812
So when does Dottie decide to pitch the game for her little sister?
Posted on 2/9/12 at 2:58 pm to alajones
quote:
So when does Dottie decide to pitch the game for her little sister?
I think it builds to a climax that starts when she's at bat against her, but the reason there's a movie is that that conflict is central to the movie and begins in their very fist scene where they're racing into the barn and Dottie wins. Continues to crescendo while Kit bawls in the dugout. The hit the high ones is a stoic face, where she wants Kit to at least earn a piece of it. Strike two is cracking. The hit is genuine surprise that she pulled it off. And then in the moment of contact, her body hits the ground, her arm hits the ground, her bare hand hits the ground and then at that moment she just let's it go.
keep in mind, that's the same hand that caught a rosie o'donnel fastball barehanded from 10' away.
if she was really a competitor as you claim it, there wouldn't even be a moment of acceptance/coping of loss? I play my brother all the time, and when he beats me, I'm pissed at least for a second. there's a recognition of defeat.
Whereas with Dottie, it's immediate admiration. Knowing admiration.
I don't know why this bothers you so much.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 2/9/12 at 3:02 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:
coke's gonna say i'm being elitist again, but everything from a movie/storytelling standpoint says it's entirely incomprehensible that she didn't drop it on purpose.
Nah. I understand the alternate argument (said it wrong earlier when I said "I never understood" it), I just disagree with it.
I think it's all about her finally seeing Kitt get the respect that she deserves (and that she's been striving to get the entire movie)...it was Kit finally moving out of Dottie's shadow and earning credit for herself. And I think, as the big sister, Dottie made her earn it rather than just handed that to her.
And I'd really need to rewatch it again because I haven't seen the whole thing in years. But I believe her to have dropped it on accident.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 3:04 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:Because nothing backs it up except you alls interpretation. The events in the movie leading up to the collision do not.
I don't know why this bothers you so much.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 3:06 pm to CocomoLSU
quote:
I think it's all about her finally seeing Kitt get the respect that she deserves (and that she's been striving to get the entire movie)...it was Kit finally moving out of Dottie's shadow and earning credit for herself. And I think, as the big sister, Dottie made her earn it rather than just handed that to her.
that's a nice them, but it's just not supported in the movie. the movie is about dottie's inner struggle. not kit's.
it's about ambition vs domestication.
it's about female empowerment vs the life of a housewife..
it's rosie the riveter but in baseball uniforms.
it's about dottie's conflicting desires to be the best but want a life of marriage.
it's not about a little sister finally beating the older sister.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 3:08 pm
Posted on 2/9/12 at 3:06 pm to alajones
I'll continue to believe she didn't do it on purpose, but this is funny to me:
Like Kit is a real person in this conversation or something.
Stop it, guys...you're making Kit upset.
quote:
You are being so disrespectful to Kit with this attitude.
Like Kit is a real person in this conversation or something.
Stop it, guys...you're making Kit upset.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 3:07 pm to CocomoLSU
quote:
it was Kit finally moving out of Dottie's shadow and earning credit for herself.
My issue with this is outside of winning the game game, even IF she comes out from under Dottie's shadow on her own (which I don't believe she does, but your argument's sake), she does NOT change as a character. Her personality doesn't change. She doesn't evolve, she doesn't learn anything.She doesn't ascend in any form.
And that's precisely why it CAN'T work that Dottie did not drop it. If Dottie lost, and accepted defeat by her sister, Why would they have to work things out later down the line? Wouldn't the catharthis be that she reunited with her sister?
But that's not the point of the movie.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 3:09 pm to LSU Fan 90812
quote:
the movie is about dottie's inner struggle. not kit's.
I disagree. Sure, it's mainly about Dottie. But Kit is there as well, and it shows her ups and downs throughout, and her final triumph to get out of Dottie's shadow and garner the respect she wanted (and Dottie knew she deserved). It's about Dottie coming to the realization that it's okay for Kit to make her own way and be on top...and that is also supported by the "take it easy" comments to her grandchildren.
quote:
it's not about a little sister finally beating the older sister.
It's about the older sister being okay with that, and acknowledging that her sister earned not only her respect, but that of her peers and the public.
Posted on 2/9/12 at 3:10 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
And that's precisely why it CAN'T work that Dottie did not drop it. If Dottie lost, and accepted defeat by her sister, Why would they have to work things out later down the line? Wouldn't the catharthis be that she reunited with her sister?
and there would be NO understanding between them. Kit would be like finally beat you. Dottie would be like yep you did.
How are they closer?
What gap has been bridged?
What has fundamentally changed in their relationship?
If Dottie doesn't drop it on purpose, then nothing.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 3:10 pm
Posted on 2/9/12 at 3:12 pm to CocomoLSU
quote:
I disagree. Sure, it's mainly about Dottie. But Kit is there as well, and it shows her ups and downs throughout, and her final triumph to get out of Dottie's shadow and garner the respect she wanted (and Dottie knew she deserved). It's about Dottie coming to the realization that it's okay for Kit to make her own way and be on top...and that is also supported by the "take it easy" comments to her grandchildren.
sorry dude. nope. Story is told from Dottie's perspective. With her reflecting on her life. Her time before she was mom and grand mom. Her interactions with the girls and Jimmy. The camera is never alone with Kit.
quote:
bout the older sister being okay with that, and acknowledging that her sister earned not only her respect, but that of her peers and the public.
that's an aspect. but this is like one of those ACT reading comp questions where they ask, which theme MOST closely relates to the paragraph.
go watch the movie again. it's as clear as day.
This post was edited on 2/9/12 at 3:13 pm
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