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Message
re: Looks like Disney might be coming to grips with what they have done to the SW franchise
Posted on 6/11/18 at 10:12 am to ell_13
Posted on 6/11/18 at 10:12 am to ell_13
quote:
This isn't a theme. It's a cliche.
It's a theme behind the movie, regardless if the theme is cliche or not. Most themes ARE cliche these days anyway.
quote:
You are literally using a fault as a merit. Either Rose is a good character or she isn't. You obviously admit she's not.
Not at all. She starts off as a good character. Then her arc nosedives later in the movie.
quote:
Again, you are using potential as a merit with a character. The projection was cool and had potential, yes. The death itself in a vacuum was good although the how and when make no sense.
Perhaps, but you need potential to at least build off of. As it stands, that's as far as the movie got with his character, but it was there at least.
quote:
They thought it was done for SJW's sake. They were totally wrong. The father-daughter relationship was a key point in the plot and a good contrast to the father-son relationship we've gotten elsewhere in Star Wars.
Of which you and I agree, but the danger (it seems) is getting lumped into that vocal minority. Everyone has triggers these days it seems, and you can get lumped into the "the main character has a vagina and I'm angry about it" group when all you're trying to say is, "don't think giving me a hero with a vagina is all the movie needs to do to be good".
3
Posted on 6/11/18 at 10:17 am to skrayper
quote:Fair point.
Most themes ARE cliche these days anyway.
quote:I can see your point, but I'm just not will to call that a good thing.
She starts off as a good character. Then her arc nosedives later in the movie.
quote:See above.
that's as far as the movie got with his character, but it was there at least.
quote:Well said.
Everyone has triggers these days it seems, and you can get lumped into the "the main character has a vagina and I'm angry about it" group when all you're trying to say is, "don't think giving me a hero with a vagina is all the movie needs to do to be good".
Posted on 6/11/18 at 10:24 am to skrayper
To me it is becoming like race baiting. If you don't like what Rian Johnson did you are a bigot or racist. That simply isn't the case with the majority of fans, no matter how much they want everyone to believe it. The story was bad, the execution on the part of the director was bad and everything was sloppy. It wasn't a continuation of TFA at all. And to boot, they wanted it all....i.e. they wanted to teach everyone lessons on social justice bullshite when all the majority of people not named Rian or Kathy wanted was a good film to entertain us set in the Star Wars universe.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 10:26 am to statman34
And for a long time I was a Last Jedi apologist. But as time went on, I realized that I really don't like using Star Wars as a vehicle to sway social politics. In fact, it pisses me off a great deal. I see this social engineering more and more hidden in things where people use their position to brain wash kids and inject political bull shite into something where it has no business being. They will get enough of that from tenured professors in college to last them a lifetime.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 10:31 am to Sasquatch Smash
quote:
Well, if in this argument the only merits being touted are that they shoehorned in new characters for the sake of checking off boxes on a diversity checklist, one side has a clear advantage.
Otherwise...what are the "merits" of "The Last Jedi," outside of the visuals and one fight scene?
Just because you add/force diversity doesn't make something better. No one would complain if these characters were well written, regardless of sex or race of the actor.
Bingo. Diversity for diversity's sake is insulting to everyone. The race/ethnicity bingo card that was Rogue One's casting was my only gripe.
I have to believe that if TLJ apologists automatically assume that any criticism of Rose/Finn instantly can be distilled down to their gender/skin color, then that tells me that this is precisely all the defenders see when they look at those actors. Who's prejudiced/bigoted, now?
Rose is arguably the worst character in SW since Jar-Jar. Don't care what color she is, it's a BAD character. Finn's an awful character, too. Besides, they took what we know to be the only black Stormtrooper, and reveal that he's a janitor? Who's racist, now?
To me, the only way that Finn would've been able to redeem his character would've been to sacrifice himself, taking down the battering ram. Rose was already in the shithouse in my book, but "saving" Finn from the only potential redemption he had? frick her.
If KK goes in the fall, I hope whomever comes in cleans house and gives RJ's trilogy to someone that actually loves the franchise.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 10:42 am to statman34
The problem moving forward is that because no one will admit to the real problems of TLJ, they have to blame Solo's failures on something else: White male lead, summer, SW fatigue, competition, bad marketing.
The white male lead argument is a fricking joke. It's a talking point for only one reason, so I'm not even going to argue it.
Blaming an early summer release is almost as bad. Yeah... releasing at a time when movies are most successful is really a strategy for failure. Wait, what?
SW fatigue can at least be argued. 5 months is the shortest time between two movies and maybe some people just weren't interested in "yet another one" so quickly. But I find that to be extremely weak. People go see good movies and when you have established characters, they often go back for more when they have high expectations for the product. MCU vs DC is a great example of this both from a positive and negative standpoint.
The competition for Solo was minimal. Deadpool and IW weren't eating into its audience any more than what a typical summer would have. Not to mention the completely empty second and third weekend competition it has faced. If you want to say it lowered the opening take, I could listen to that to an extent. By how much though? 10-15 million that one weekend? It's still not a 230 million film even with that boost.
And finally bad marketing. That I can agree upon totally. No one knew what this film was about. All Disney tried to sell was "HEY YALL LOOK ITS HAN!!!" How does that bring anyone in, especially a new audience? What makes people want to see it other than nostalgia? Apparently, this was a pretty good film, so why not sell the film itself?
The white male lead argument is a fricking joke. It's a talking point for only one reason, so I'm not even going to argue it.
Blaming an early summer release is almost as bad. Yeah... releasing at a time when movies are most successful is really a strategy for failure. Wait, what?
SW fatigue can at least be argued. 5 months is the shortest time between two movies and maybe some people just weren't interested in "yet another one" so quickly. But I find that to be extremely weak. People go see good movies and when you have established characters, they often go back for more when they have high expectations for the product. MCU vs DC is a great example of this both from a positive and negative standpoint.
The competition for Solo was minimal. Deadpool and IW weren't eating into its audience any more than what a typical summer would have. Not to mention the completely empty second and third weekend competition it has faced. If you want to say it lowered the opening take, I could listen to that to an extent. By how much though? 10-15 million that one weekend? It's still not a 230 million film even with that boost.
And finally bad marketing. That I can agree upon totally. No one knew what this film was about. All Disney tried to sell was "HEY YALL LOOK ITS HAN!!!" How does that bring anyone in, especially a new audience? What makes people want to see it other than nostalgia? Apparently, this was a pretty good film, so why not sell the film itself?
Posted on 6/11/18 at 10:47 am to ell_13
quote:
And finally bad marketing. That I can agree upon totally
Yeah, the marketing was terrible. Solo could turn out to be a blip on the radar screen. It's Ep 9 that'll tell us a lot about the franchise moving forward. The good news for Disney is that it's still a year and half away from opening.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 10:51 am to RLDSC FAN
And I'm going to say this right now. If Ep IX is good, I'm going to see it. I like good movies. If it does well because it's good, I'm going to be happy for Star Wars. But if it's like VIII in almost any way, it's fricked and I certainly won't see it.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 10:54 am to ell_13
My gripe with Solo is the same as few critics' that I saw after the fact: The movie doesn't pose any questions where we don't already know the answers.
OMG, Chewie's hanging off the side of the train! - Big deal. We know he's okay 10 years later, because we see him in Mos Eisley with Han.
Young Han is in love! Is he going to get the girl and settle down? Of course not. He's a cynical, self-service pirate who is a galactic tumbleweed, as we've come to know. There was no shot at he and Qi'ra being happy and having a Falcon full of kids.
That said, though, it was fun. Not my favorite of all time, but SW first and foremostly is supposed to be FUN.
TLJ was not fun. It was like bad fan fiction, written by someone who was told the story of Star Wars, but hadn't ever seen it themselves, so they go off on some wacko tangent. TLJ was to SW fans what Phoebe's dollhouse was to Monica.
And that Geico commercial.
OMG, Chewie's hanging off the side of the train! - Big deal. We know he's okay 10 years later, because we see him in Mos Eisley with Han.
Young Han is in love! Is he going to get the girl and settle down? Of course not. He's a cynical, self-service pirate who is a galactic tumbleweed, as we've come to know. There was no shot at he and Qi'ra being happy and having a Falcon full of kids.
That said, though, it was fun. Not my favorite of all time, but SW first and foremostly is supposed to be FUN.
TLJ was not fun. It was like bad fan fiction, written by someone who was told the story of Star Wars, but hadn't ever seen it themselves, so they go off on some wacko tangent. TLJ was to SW fans what Phoebe's dollhouse was to Monica.
And that Geico commercial.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:05 am to Jamohn
quote:this was a lot of it. How he came out and said "I dont care what the fans want, im going to make a movie how i want it. The fans dont matter"
I think a big part of it was the way they reacted to people's reaction. Especially Rian Johnson. He showed such contempt for the fans of the franchise he'd been handed to go with the contempt he showed for the source material. The tone was so condescending like we were are stupid, immature, or evil for not liking that shite pile. I maybe could abide a mistake in one movie, but the obstinate defiance that we the fans were wrong for not liking it was just too much.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:17 am to Sasquatch Smash
quote:IT is like all the hate Fin got. Then he makes the decision to sacrifice himself to save the resistance. And the mood towards him changes saying well now he has a decent story arc. He was a storm trooper and not the one to deliver a devastating blow to the Empire.......
Just because you add/force diversity doesn't make something better. No one would complain if these characters were well written, regardless of sex or race of the actor.
Then the frick it up to have him "saved" by the Asian and delivers the rest of the resistance their death tickets.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:17 am to CarRamrod
quote:
How he came out and said "I dont care what the fans want, im going to make a movie how i want it. The fans dont matter"
the thing about his smug reaction to the criticism is that his movie starts off with low-level, adam sandler-esque comedy
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:19 am to ell_13
quote:
And I'm going to say this right now. If Ep IX is good, I'm going to see it. I like good movies. If it does well because it's good, I'm going to be happy for Star Wars. But if it's like VIII in almost any way, it's fricked and I certainly won't see it.
Before TLJ, i'd see a Star Wars film on opening day and could care less what anyone else has to say about that film, i'm going see it, and i'm avoiding all spoilers.
Now, i will read everything about this movie before deciding if i should go see it or not, and i likely still won't go see it even if it is good. It needs to be great, and i need to see great reviews for it, then see it myself at home and enjoy it, and then, when the next one comes out, i'll go see it in the theaters opening weekend.
I would bet any money that if Solo came out when Rogue One did, it would have easily made over $1B, hell probably $1.5B, and if Rogue One came out now, it wouldn't make $500M, even though it's an awesome Star Wars movie in my opinion. I've rewatched it several times and enjoy it every time. While this is obviously just an opinion, i think most people know its probably pretty accurate, and that fact that it is likely an accurate assumption, shows how pissed off you made Star Wars fans after TLJ.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:22 am to skrayper
quote:well they did take out most of her "Im a sassy woman" lines from the trailers to make her character better.
There was a small (yet vocal) minority who complained about a female lead in Rogue One. So sometimes, if you have valid criticism, part of the thing you have to do is make sure your critique doesn't sound like a copy/paste of the same people who called Rogue One a movie for feminist pandering.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:28 am to skrayper
quote:
She starts off as a good character.
Sassy Asian Woman is not a good character. Her sister started as a good character. Exctept for the whole dropping bombs in space, even though it has be retrospectively explained. 
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:31 am to ell_13
quote:
It was dislike because it was a bad movie with a bad plot and bad storytelling over a bad premise and dialogue and a pointless subplot. Very little was objectively enjoyable with so many flaws.
Amen... High Five...
No excuse for the bad plot, bad storytelling... ect...
None! I really think they got lazy...
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:32 am to VoxDawg
quote:what it didnt do but should have was answer as to why Han is like that. Mybe it did with the Self Servantness with how his love screwed him over in the end.
The movie doesn't pose any questions where we don't already know the answers.
OMG, Chewie's hanging off the side of the train! - Big deal. We know he's okay 10 years later, because we see him in Mos Eisley with Han.
Young Han is in love! Is he going to get the girl and settle down? Of course not. He's a cynical, self-service pirate who is a galactic tumbleweed, as we've come to know. There was no shot at he and Qi'ra being happy and having a Falcon full of kids.
That said, though, it was fun. Not my favorite of all time, but SW first and foremostly is supposed to be FUN.
TLJ was not fun. It was like bad fan fiction, written by someone who was told the story of Star Wars, but hadn't ever seen it themselves, so they go off on some wacko tangent. TLJ was to SW fans what Phoebe's dollhouse was to Monica.
But Han randomly speaks wookie? it really didnt explain the life debt between Han and Chewy. the whole Han Chewy fight was a little stupid.
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:33 am to Jamohn
(no message)
This post was edited on 5/27/23 at 6:53 am
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:36 am to League Champs
quote:They're delusional; don't get your hopes up. They might make changes, but they'll just bring in replacements from the same sick, delusional lineup.
do hope this means they are taking the message to heart, and going to GREATLY repair the damage
Posted on 6/11/18 at 11:42 am to CarRamrod
quote:
it really didnt explain the life debt between Han and Chew
I think it's pretty self-explanatory, isn't it?
quote:
what it didnt do but should have was answer as to why Han is like that.
See, to me it did. Ehrenreich may not look or sound just like Harrison Ford, but I could totally buy how the kid from Solo could grow up to become Ford's portrayal of the character.
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